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as usual, scot, it’s a very good and insightful, eye opening teaching
Shalom Scot,
Just watched your “Be Forwarned” teaching and am very grateful for you teaching this material, I support you point by point 11/11! You have a LOT of courage, you’ve just exposed the false identity trump card of many Ephraimitish leaders. Hey, if you know any brethren in BC Canada that agree with this teaching and live their lives accordingly I would love to meet and support them as much as I can. They gotta be in a lonely place, I’ve never heard that preached in any 2House congregation. The Father showed me some time ago how the religious “Israelitish blood identity” spirit is tool of hasatan to put a stumbling block against Jews and Christians, preventing them from entering into the Malchut Elohim. I pray your teaching will reach many, many hearts and bear much fruit unto King Mashiyach. One Torah. One People. One Mashiyach. Undivided. Strong. Victorious.
Baruch haShem YHWH!
YHWH be with you akhi,
Baruch ben Daniel
ps hey check out tamiym as it pertains to the kedoshim.
Tamiym = blameless?
Kedoshim= Set appart ones?
Daniel, could you give a little more?
Deb
Shalom khati Deb,
Yes, check it out, but look at how this is taught in Hebrew and the Aramaic NT. From B’resheet to Revelation these two words speak of the Work of Mashiyach within the Bride. Scot used the cliche’ that nobody’s perfect and I understand the point he is making, however, though we have all fallen short, we also rise in newness of life, our past sins don’t follow us to the grave… unless we let them… well other people might like to stick it to us, but Mashiyach doesn’t, others might but that’s only because they haven’t accepted Mashiyach’s forgiveness into their own lives. This is an awesome study and meditation about how the work of the Ruach haKodesh brings Perfection, not as the world judges but as YHWH does with righteous judgment. I believe the body of Mashiyach is getting this message imparted right now. I agree there are very, very dark times ahead and I’m getting prepared for the Day of YHWH, but there is also a great Joy in the acharit hayamim where the remnant is birthed and that’s not going to happen unless we become vessels and disciples that the Ruach haKodesh can be poured into. But don’t take my word for it… check it out.
YHWH be with you,
PS… they call me “Baruch”…
Thanks for your teachings,I find them a real asset in understanding many of the dificult passages in what many refer to as the new testament.I aslo enjoyed the conference sponsored by bondservants of Elohim in Langley,B.C.
Scott, I was tracking with you through Galatians up until the end. I have a question. What did Paul mean when he said “ Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.�
Did he mean they should not be circumcised? Although they were gentiles they were believers already so this is not a question of salvation but of circumcision after faith.
He is defiantly talking about circumcision, and not belief verses unbelief, when he says â€For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creatureâ€
I’m confused and request clarification. Are you teaching us that all uncircumcised male believers in Yeshua must be circumcised? Not TO be saved but AFTER we are saved?
I was tired and should have been clearer. Paul IS NOT offering a treatise against or for circumcision.
â€For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creatureâ€
He is talking about being circumcised in the flesh while still in unbelief (belief vs. unbelief). Here Paul is speaking to a specific dynamic that was in play and the ones that came to the newer converts were “not sent out by the disciples.” They were looking for a following…then the converts from Galatia withdrew to the “weak and beggarly thing of the world” and “angel worship.”
Exactly. Also, I just did some research on the history of the Galatians and man were they messed up. They were returning to extremely pagan festivals and were also embracing Gnosticism mixed with Judaism. False Jewish bretheren that had embraced legalism were making circumcision a “show” and not a Covenant thing. Paul was not against Circumcision but against the Galatians being circumcised for the wrong reason.
What if someone walked into a chruch denomination who was living a very sinful life and was unwilling to repent, but then some church men come and force baptism upon that man living in sin thinking that it will profit him for salvation. It is the same concept with the situation Paul was dealing with concerning the Galatians.
BTW, many of the Galatian practices were handed down from the Celtic people which included druidism, witchcraft, Harvest Festivals (Halloween…), human sacrifices, sun god worship, and various other things. Living the life they did when Paul was writing to them in Galatians, circumcision truly would have profited them NOTHING.
Paul circumcised Timothy remember? So Paul was not against it. In fact, Paul himself was circumcised.
I thought those Paul wrote to were already believers. Why would Paul tell them not to be circumcised? Maybe he meant they should be circumcised but not by those men?
They were believers…turning back to “weak and beggarly elements of the world” and “superstitious observance of days, months, years, etc…” and the “worship of those who by nature are NOT GODS”
They were falling back into their old ways which “formerly had them in bondage”
Paul speaks against “circumcision to be saved” as well as “circumcision OR uncircumcision” “without faith,” but NEVER speaks against the command of YHWH. And yes…you nailed it…not by those men who weren’t sent out by the disciples to begin with.
They were churchmen looking for a following NOT to be confused with “some of the sect of the Pharisees WHO BELIEVED” in Acts 15. Churchmen today get BOTH OF THESE BACKWARDS and continue to lie for the same reasons those in Galatians did. They assume the Acts 15 Pharisees were unbelievers with scissors in hand and that those in the Galatians episode carrying out some command in Torah…which Messia came to abolish…lol.
Scot,
I just finished a HR book by Rick Richardson and am currently reading a book by FFOZ “Returning the Torah to the Disciples of Jesus”. I also have books by Nehemiah Gordon, Lew Whie, etc. that I will be reading.
I am trying to crystalize the teachings of HRM into a standard of common belief and orthodoxy for a paper I am writing. I am still very interested in interviewing you. Please consider this.
The book by Richardson is pretty easy to refute and will be fodder in my paper. But the FFOZ work is pretty good stuff. I don’t agree with all of the FFOZ conclusions but I have learned some things that I am going to have to investigate further. For me the biggest issue will be reviewing the writings of Church Fathers to determine whether or not they were completely disconnected from Torah etc.
Chris, what did you think of that book, Restoration: Returning the Torah of God to the Disciples of Jesus by D. Thomas Lancaster? Two more books you might find interesting are They Loved the Torah (David Friedman) and The Letter Writer: Paul’s Background and Torah Perspective (Tim Hegg).
Thanks Vic! The book by Lancaster is very good. So far I have found his case for the Hebrew Roots the Most compelling. He makes a case without throwing out Christian orthodoxy, at least so far. I still have a few chapters left in his book. So far Lancaster seems to have a pretty good handle on church history and on the hermeneutic of his perspective. I don’t agree with every one of his conclusions but he makes a good case that is intelligent and well thought out.
I thought about “They Loved Torah” but hadn’t heard of Hegg’s work…..I’ll check it out thanks! I am buying as many on my Kindle as possible, but I have been forced to buy some in a hard copy.
Chris, I posted a thread on the Blog with one of many sources I found. Gnosticism did exists friend. Study it yourself if you haven’t. Angel worship was one of the many beliefs within Gnosticism.
You keep calling us HRM on the blog. That is not what we are. “Hebrew Roots” can mean ANYTHING in these days just like “Christian” can mean anything. You know that Chris. A mormon, Jehovah’s Witness, New Age, Oprah, etc…they are all “Christian”. Please don’t call us “Hebrew Roots” as if we are some sect as you claim. You are correct that there are HRM sects out there that are in error about many things. Some are purposely in error, and others are in error because they are only walking in the light they have, and don’t know any better. That same fact goes for the majority of Christians and the rest of the world. Nobody has all the answers. Baptists do NOT have all the answers.
There are Baptists who believe that I would go to hell for playing an instrument for YHWH. Surley, just because SOME think that, does not mean I assume YOU are that way Chris. So if you can agree that not all those in “Baptists” sects are the same, then you must agree that generalizing the people on THIS blog is also error.
We are not a “Scot’s Blog Sect of Judaism”. Nor do I consider myself a “HRM” attender. I have no labels. I identify with my Creator YHWH and believe on His ONLY SON Yahshua as the ONLY way to the Father. I identify with YHWH and HIS WORD to the best I can as a fallen human that is not perfect and has not arrived.
You need to stop generalizing when you say things like “Whether you like it or not HRM is another Secterian group that is forming. It is also your movement Net, and Larry’s, Stephen’s etc.”
Yes, HRM is becoming more like that. But do not assume that that is what the people on this blog are doing. You are viewing us through biased lenses. Please stop that.
And yes, I do take offense to being label thank you very much. No man has the right to label me. Not any Rabbinic Rabbi, Pastor, Cleric, Shaman, or you. Abba is our identity.
Net,
I have no idea why the label is offensive. I really don’t understand. I thought many here were proud of the basic beliefs of the HRM. I am sorry if I offended you.
Net,
Please let me know the name of the gnostic resource. I am interested.
Also,
angel worship was big in the Gnostic doctrines during the 1st Century and Gnosticism was embraced by many during that time. What the Galatians were doing was the same thing the deceivers were doing to believers in Colossians 2.
Net,
I am fully aware that the Movement is not Scot’s. I m a Baptist and if you said “My movement” regarding the Baptists I would not be offended in the least. Whether you like it or not HRM is another Secterian group that is forming. It is also your movement Net, and Larry’s, Stephen’s etc.
BTW could you let me know where you go your info about gnosticism and the Galatians? Historians and Scholars don’t even believe that full blown gnosticism existed in Paul’s day. If you have some other scholarly material to point me to I’d be most appreciative.
thanks friend!!
Chris, you are in error stating that I am part of any ‘movement.’
I am not. I am led by the Spirit of my Father, seeking to follow the example of my Messiah Yeshua as contained in the Scriptures.
Any attempt on your part to label or categorize me further is an attempt to justify your willful disobedience and yet another example of your attitude of having ‘arrived.’
Stephen,
You are most certainly a believer in the Hebrew Roots? Do you deny that?
That’s the problem Chris – our penchant to want to categorise people into ‘groups’.
It’s human nature – of the flesh. It is an effort of mental ascent – to stuff people into categories so we can ‘identify’ where they fit into our paradigm/understanding of reality.
There is only ONE reality. The rest is illusion. And I think it’s safe to say we all know who the master of Illusion is…..
Yah bless you brother.
Chris, yes, I deny that.
Let me be clear: I am a believer in our Heavenly Father’s teachings and instructions (Torah), and in our Messiah Yeshua.
Ok Stephen,
Fair enough. If I offended you I am sorry. Many on this blog have openly identified with Hebrew Roots in one way or another. Maybe your views are different. Would mind explaining how you diverge from typical HR views? I am interested in understanding your own unique beliefs.
Chris, I don’t know how you define “typical HR views,” so I’m unable to explain. If you have specific questions, I’ll be happy to answer as best I can.
Thanks Stephen,
That answer says it all.
That goes for me too Stephen. Exactly
HRM is not the Household of Redeemed.
Roman Catholism is not the Household of Redeemed.
Baptists are not the Household of Redeemed.
Calvary Chapel is not the Household of Redeemed.
Pentecostals, Assembly of God, etc… ALL denominations are NOT the Household of Redeemed.
The Household of Redeemed = the Israel of YHWH. Those whose identity is the Father’s through Yahshua the Messiah. There are many who are of the Israel of YHWH from ALL religions of the world that are coming out of her and returning to the Word (Torah) of YHWH and to Yahshua the Messiah.
Fiathful of Judah
Faithful of Israel
Fiathful from all the nations who come OUT of religious sytems
The above 3 = Israel.
Very nice statement! I think the YHWH’s Israel and the body of the Messiah is the one and the same thing. I have always wondered that why an earth to separate YHWH’s Israel from the body of the Messiah?
I think the Father just wanted to show us what His Israel is all about from the different kind of viewpoint by calling it as the body of Messiah in the “new testament” writings. I believe that the Father just wanted to deepen our understanding regarding what is His Israel by doing so, but in the end there is no difference between YHWH’s Israel and the body of Messiah, but they are ONE and the SAME living spiritual body:
the YHWH’s Temple made of the Living Stones and the Olive Tree with grafted in natural branches AND wildbranches producing the fruit of the Spirit and obeying Torah together through the faith in Yeshua.
Without any labels, I would say that the two sticks (Judah and Ephraim=YHWH’s ISRAEL) are getting more and more identifiable form in Yeshua Messiah day by day in all levels.
It doesn’t meant that the like-minded believers within these two sticks are coming sinless, but having deeper understanding regarding knowing the Father. I would lie if the messianic / HR -movement hasn’t been a powerful tool in the Father’s hand for the sake of the restoration of all things.
All who want to be one with the great harlot (Babylon) or bow down before the beast will find themselves outside of the commonwealth of Israel in the end. That’s why the Father sends strong delusion in the end of days to FINALLY separate the wheat from the tears that everyone who follow the Truth or lies could be indetified and judged by their works when Yeshua returns.
I meant: identified, not “indetified”. A typo.
That makes sense brother, thanks for teaching the return to Torah!
Chris,
The book you need to “determine your orthodoxy” is the same thing that Paul used to determine his own…”the Law & The Prophets”
You may certainly glean some good things from Hegg, Lancaster, etc but you will also get some “poo in the cookie” as well. There is no “poo in the cookie” if our standard is the law and the prophets.
Such is the case with your multiple fathers in what you have defined as “the church.” The good news for the overwhelming majority of the redeemed who have been saved apart from ANY participation in her is that neither you nor her get to decide who is redeemed.
Please take to heart the “plumbline” of the torah which is used to measure every man as well as the Passover Lamb that YHWH provides.
The good thing about the law is that it came from YHWH.
The good thing about the prophets is that they came from YHWH.
No need to consult the board, assemble a panel, or name “church fathers,” an absurd notion entirely. No BRICKS & MORTAR, no “strategic forecasting or planning team.” The prophets are the strategic forecasting.
Though the religious men try to SHUT THEM OUT as they ALWAYS get in the way of the kingdom builder’s goal of bricks and mortar ABBA goes before them and blazes a path.
Chris, how would one determine whether one is a “church father” or not? Mob rule? Majority vote? Craziness…you do well to stop reviving that lie friend.
Scot,
I was simply asking for help with a paper. If you don’t want to contribute then that is fine. I just thought since I am going to put together a work representing your movement that you might want to have a hand in it. My work will ultimately be published in one form or another and made available to others who are curious about the HRM.
If you change your mind and decide that you’d like to have an opportunity to represent your movement let me know.
God bless friend!
Chris,
not to butt in, but the Torah Faith is not “Scot’s Movement”. It is the work of YHWH and His Spirit. When you say “Your movement” (concerning Scot) it sounds a bit insulting.
The HRM has many problems in it just like any other relgion. Scot’s website does NOT represent a “religious movement” of any kind. This site is not about movements or religion period. It is about Truth and trying to seek that truth to the best as possible.
Just clarifying because you come across as calling Scot a “cult leader” when you say “your movement”.
Scot,
There are certainly “church fathers” and we all know who they were and what there position was in the early church. Their letters and other corroborating historical information helps us understand much about them. Without an understanding of church history and the teaching of the fathers we cannot understand the hermenuetic used to interpret scripture by the apostles and their disciples. This is important stuff! If I am right you are using the hermenutic of the Judaizers. If you are right I am using an erroneus hermeneutic of a heretical group. The point is that the answer should be found in history. That is where I must go to discover the proper hermeneutic.
There are no “church fathers”. There is only ONE Father and ONE Messiah, ONE faith, ONE Torah, ONE house of redeemed. We are all brothers and sisters in Messiah Yahshua. Marcion was considered an early “church father” yet he was a gnostic and had a school named after him as well. He was considered the biggest heretic during the early 2nd Century.
By calling them “church fathers” people are in fact saying that they are the ones building the church. I thought that was YHWH’s job through His Son. Does not the term “church father” contradict the Scriptural Concept of YHWH being ONE Father over ALL? I believe so.
Friend, there is increasing distance between myself and “the movement” that is rapidly growing each day. I see men protecting lies and embracing a “personality cult” and as such will have no part in it. It is counterproductive.
1. It gives the people what they want… titillation and ammusement.
2. It discourages solid discussion so as to “not disturb the organism” that we created.
We have fallen into the same ditch and would rather be entertained than instructed.
“I” don’t have a movement. Though if I could discribe the essence of the HR message it would be…”hope to the nations.” They are NO LONGER foreigners…
Everyone should read this, carefully.
a·muse   /əˈmyuz/ Show Spelled
[uh-myooz] Show IPA
–verb (used with object), a·mused, a·mus·ing.
1. to hold the attention of (someone) pleasantly; entertain or DIVERT in an enjoyable or cheerful manner: She amused the guests with witty conversation.
2. to cause mirth, laughter, or the like, in: The comedian amused the audience with a steady stream of jokes.
3. to cause (time, leisure, etc.) to pass agreeably.
4. Archaic . to keep in expectation by flattery, pretenses, etc.
5. Obsolete .
a. to engross; absorb.
b. to puzzle; distract.
Origin:
1470–80; < MF amuser to divert, amuse; see a-5 , muse
—Synonyms
1. please, charm, cheer. Amuse, divert, entertain mean to occupy the attention with something pleasant. That which amuses is usually playful or humorous and pleases the fancy. Divert implies turning the attention from serious thoughts or pursuits to something light, amusing, or lively. That which entertains usually does so because of a plan or program that engages and holds the attention by being pleasing and sometimes instructive
It is also worth noting that the word A+MUSE is the combination of two parts…
A – meaning without
MUSE – thought, deliberate, ruminate
In other words, lets NOT think about what is really happening…lets play.
You said “Friend, there is increasing distance between myself and “the movement†that is rapidly growing each day. I see men protecting lies and embracing a “personality cult†and as such will have no part in it…..We have fallen into the same ditch and would rather be entertained than instructed.”
I’ve been saying the same thing for a while. Regarding ‘amusement’, yes, panem et circenses (bread and circus), the romans and greeks were masters of it.
When my family and I were in Lost Wages (Las Vegas) for our family trip, we visited a “Hebrew Roots” Messianic Synagogue hoping that they would be loving and recieve new comers. To my dissapointed (though I had a feeling this would happen), they gave suspicious stares at me and my entire family and we felt ZERO love in that place. We were trying to love and fellowship and worship YHWH together in the Name of Yahshua. However, they were more focused on traditions and being “Jewish” then they were in teaching Torah. Just because I didn’t wear a skull cap during service (which is not biblical) I got stares from people.
It frustrates me so much that even in the Messianic Movement, people are becoming “clicks” and making everything a social club rather than seeking truth. They either teach people how to be Jewish, teach traditions, hide truth, worry more about how one looks on the outside then inside, or they teach reverse replacement theology (Jews will be in the Kingdom but the other believers in Yahshua get the gentile section). This is sin!
It sickens me so much, that Abba has show us how to PREVENT history from repeating itself again, yet people in their greed, power, lusts, or corruption create another monsterous religious movement and stamp “Torah” and “Yahshua” on it. I have been tempted to just rent my clothes and just weep. Many in the Hebrew Roots are committing the same sin as Roman Catholicism commited. Kingdom Building… it WILL stop one day. I look forward to that day. You would think people would rejoice in being freed by YHWH’s truth. But noooo…. Instead, it becomes all about groups and titles, rather than pointing UP to Abba… How shameful! May we all repent of of this.
We used to attend a “messianic jewish synagogue” here where we live. All seemed nice and cool, until we realized what was actually going on, panem et circenses (bread and circus), entertaining traditions, “jewish” club, etc…we were naive, it took us about a year to decide to leave which we did. NOT one person from the synagogue contacted us afterwards to see how we were doing, although they said they were our brothers and sisters and promised to keep in touch (before we left, they had this thing in which groups of 3 from the entire congregation were supposed to call each other, thing which lasted about 1-2 weeks)
Larry,
your testimony is so similar to mine. The sad thing is some leaders try to “reconcile” with words fo flattery to try to suck you back into their group again. The synagogue took advantage of my entire family just because my dad is a doctor.
“Hey look! Goys that have money! Lets get them to stay in our click! And in the Kingdom, they can have the BETTER Goy section than others.” Oh man…. *blood boils*
Some of the leaders at this Synagogue I used to attened would even make jokes about how goys can turn on light switches on the Sabbath Day but Jews couldn’t. Then they would look to me, and hint at me to turn on a light switch or something. It was so prideful. Sadly this same spirit infiltrates many Messianic Congregations or Synagogues even today. It’s all a mess.
I will NEVER return to Christendom. Nor will I ever return to Judaism. I have been on the extremes of BOTH sides and I will fight to the death with ALL I am in Yahshua’s Name, to spare others of the painful experiences I went through from both of those blasphemous religious groups.
I hear you.
I agree. I have seen that there are at least roughly two kinds of groups within the Hebrew roots -movement:
1) MESSIANIC JUDAIZERS
The ones who believes in Yeshua as the Messiah and who obey YHWH’s Torah, but are under the rabbinical authority at the same time and demand others as well for example to:
-wear kippah
-interpret Torah “correctly” through Talmud and other extra biblical Jewish resources
-have Sabbath meal and Seder according to the jewish traditions
etc etc
2) Messianic believers (the ones who believes in Yeshua as the Messiah and who obey Torah, but who don’t see anykind of problem with good and harmless jewish traditions such as traditional jewish Sabbath meal but who don’t either demand others to live according to those kind of traditions even if they are good and harmless in themselves.
Please, don’t get me wrong. I am not pushing believers to adopt jewish traditions but making a difference between good and bad traditions. I would lie if I would claim that all Jewish traditions are bad. If a tradition supports Scriptures then it’s ok (without pushing others to live according to it). But if it doesn’t, it should be forsaken.
I didn’t have problem to enjoy a traditional Jewish Sabbath meal with my messianic friends yesterday, but I am not forcing / demanding myself nor my family to have a traditional Sabbath meal together. Sabbath is still Sabbath without traditions. And Sabbath is still Sabbath with good and harmless traditions as well.
today is shabbat…perhaps it should be on a lighter note…
Scot,
Frankly I see the same thing in the HRM movement. But it is nothing new. The spotlight is a temptation in every religious circle. Whether it is Creflo Dollar, Benny Hinn, or Michael Rood it doesnt really matter. The focus should be on the text, the truth, and obedience to it, not on personalities.
By the way friend my research has forced me to re-examine the issue of the feasts and the Sabbath. I am being stretched and challenged. I am taking the most critical look at my views that I ever had. This is what writing a significant paper entails. I don’t know where I’ll end up but I will enjy the ride. Chances are I’ll find the support from history that I need to buttress Christian orthodoxy, but we’ll see. I wll admit that the feasts have more significance to me now than ever before. We’ll see if it leads any where interesting.
Scot,
I am sooo with you on this one. As you once said ‘the problem with movements it is that they move’ and the HRM is quickly moving from where it began.
At first, small teachers teaching small groups of people (little or no money required) now the groups are getting bigger and so the ego of the teacher. I saw so many criticism of HRM on pastors that ask for money and now they are doing the same thing.
There are still some that resist the kingdom builders and yet others that will dance and sing to their tune…repackaged tithing perversions, the local church deception, etc…there is NO SUCH THING as THE (singular) LOCAL (distinguished from global) CHURCH (assembly). There are however buildings which believers and unbelievers frequent…WAL-MART, Kroger, Dollar General…every bit as viable…
Chris,
Lets try harder to point out error that is taught instead of people. It is only necessary to expose people after prolonged teaching of error. It is also good to point out good things that they may have been used to express.
I agree with Scot on this one too. I believe it is sin to continue to point fingers at individuals when they have repented of whatever error they might have made, rather than pointing fingers at the teachings.
Chris,
WHY do you HAVE TO HAVE something ELSE to latch onto (i.e. “the church fathers”, “Christian orthodoxy”, etc.) other than the Scriptures? Reminds me of a puppy (whose eyes haven’t opened yet) drawing on it’s mother’s nipple. If she gets up and walks away, that puppy will latch onto ANYTHING that even closely resembles his momma’s nipple. Sound familiar? Well, the faith once delivered to the saints didn’t get up and walk away, so much as it was shoved out the door long ago by the ilk you hold in such high regard.
“The focus should be on the text, the truth, and obedience to it, not on personalities.” Really? Do you believe that? Wow! (I thought “obedience” was a dirty word in evangelical Christendom.) Obedience to WHAT, Chris – the WHOLE Bible, or just the parts you THINK are for you/the “Gentile Christian Church”? So, “obedience,” huh? Tell me: What is so hard, for instance, about understanding and BEING OBEDIENT TO something as basic AND IMPORTANT to the Father as THE Sabbath, you know, the 4th commandment?
By the way, Chris, do you REALLY believe “orthodox Christianity” is THE FAITH once delivered to the saints? Puh-leeeze. REALLY? Do you really believe any of the early disciples would have a CLUE as to what goes on today in a Christian “worship service”, let alone one held on the “Christian sabbath” (in lieu of THE Sabbath)? Would they understand any of what’s written in books found at the Christian bookstores where, for example, there’s magically TWO peoples (Jew and Gentile) of God now? No, they would not.
“Without an understanding of church history and the teaching of the fathers we cannot understand the hermenuetic used to interpret scripture by the apostles and their disciples.” This statement is so funny and pathetic I find it hard to believe you even uttered it. On second thought…
Again, WHY do you come here? Come on, admit it, you fancy yourself as kind of a Christian swashbuckler here, don’t you! “Arggggggh, matie!”
Vic,
I am doing some serious research about the origins of my faith. I was hoping that you might be able to see that. If mocking me makes you feel better then that is fine. My statements express my viewpoint. I do not expect you to adopt my views. I am merely expressing my own beliefs.
Studying the early Church Fathers is a crucial aspect of my journey to discover the truth, in its entirety. The issue that seperates Christianity from the Hebrew Roots is that of hermeneutics. The HRM movement has a Torah first heremeneutic and Christianity has a Christological and Pauline hermeneutic. If the early church fathers used a Torah first hermeneutic then I am clearly in error. If the early church fathers (the disciples of the apostles) used a Christological & Pauline hermeneutic then you are in error. The alternative view I suppose is that the Early church Fathers were in error despite sitting at the feet of the apostles, but this view is problematic at best.
At any rate I am sincerely examining my beliefs. I must do so in order to create a work that would provide and honest examination of the HRM movement. I want to submit a fine piece of scholarly work moving forward. This requires research and the discovery of truth.
Lord bless you VIC!
Chris, if you are sincerely seeking to know the Truth, above, and outside everything you have learned from men, then Abba WILL show you.
Abba NEVER turns away from a humble, sincere, seeking heart.
Thanks Lisa. I am seeking. I am also hoping to defend my own beliefs. But as the truth is revealed I am willing to accept it wherever it leads. One of the things I want to study is the Ebionites and the Waldeneses.
Chris,
I pray your adventure in seeking the truth goes well with you
Thanks Net
Chris, everyone’s experience with Yah is unique, but similar. The underpinning similarity that must be present is the willingness to set aside our preconceptions and allow Him to teach us. Not an easy thing — as I found it took considerable determination of will on my part to actually do the yielding and stop there (because that’s where the trust came in). But the desire in my heart was so strong to know Him, that I kinda came to a point where I literally held my hands up and cried, ‘what do you want of me?’.
He brings us to the end of ourselves, one way or another.
I got out of my own way and He began teaching me. I praise Him that He got my attention when He did. I do wish I had yielded earlier.
Chris,
I didn’t know you’d been coming here all this time doing research. I’m sorry, I was unaware of that.
The “faith once delivered to the saints” was very much based on the Torah (and the Prophets and the Writings). We were never to be led away from those things. This does not in any way lessen or shove aside Yahshua – at least for me it doesn’t. I’ve heard many people say that what I now believe “tramples the blood of Christ”, that I’m “going back under the Law”, that I’m “trying to earn my way into Heaven”, etc. How? How is that the case when I read over and over that we’re to keep the commandments? Did YHWH take His people OUT OF captivity/bondage just to bring them to Sinai and PUT THEM BACK UNDER bondage (by giving them the written Torah)? No, of course not. As far as the accusation against me (and others with similar beliefs) “trampling the blood of Christ” by wanting to obey the Torah, that’s preposterous. How am I doing such a thing when Yahshua even said if we love him we are to obey his commandments? I truly know Him better than I ever have (though I STILL have struggles in my walk as far as understanding everything I’d like to understand).
As you know, Yahshua said he didn’t come to abolish the former things. And in Jeremiah 6:16 we read, “Thus saith YHWH, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.” (That’s the way I used to be, by the way, and what I used to say. It’s what I read you saying so often.) I can’t get past the word “forever” in my Bible. Can you? Use that very nice software you have and see what it says pertaining to “forever”. I’ll bet you’ll be blown away by it. I also can’t get past passages like, Psalm 119:97, “O how love I thy Torah! it is my meditation all the day,” or Psalm 119:44-45, “So shall I keep thy Torah continually forever and ever. 45 And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts.”
Though Paul was accused many times of teaching against (or away from) “Moses” (aka the Torah) in Acts, over and over again he refuted those claims and accusations. For example, in Acts 24:14 he said, “But this I confess to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect/heresy, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets…” If I were to read anywhere in the NT where Paul said that anybody coming along after Christ was a fool for keeping the Torah, with what I know now, I’d have to rip Paul’s letters out of my Bible (per Deuteronomy 13) and forget what he said. (Remember, he even said for us to continue in the Torah: “Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you” -1 Corinthians 11:2. These times of accusation where he was brought before the authorities were his big chance to set the record straight about the Torah if we were now freed from keeping it, right? But he didn’t do that.) When I realized we don’t have warring testaments (the Old vs. the New, and Law vs. Grace) my eyes were opened then in a big way, too.
Chris, I grew up in evangelical Christianity. I’m not a young whipper-snapper, either. This is so important for you to understand because many of the people here have similar backgrounds where they have “come out of” the Christian churches. Something about evangelical Christianity didn’t sit right with me for the longest time – all those things I mentioned earlier. When I realized that I am a grafted-in Israelite things started to make more and more sense. The whole “Jews” vs. “Gentiles” issue being taught in the (Methodist, Baptist, and non-denominational) churches I attended didn’t make sense. It was as if there was this false reverence for the Jews, while at the same time saying the Gentile Christian Church replaced them after they rejected Jesus and were cast away leaving the blessing to “us”. Well that didn’t make sense, either. Remember Romans 11:1? Much of what I heard being preached was that YHWH had TWO brides – a Jewish one and a Gentile one with TWO different sets of rules (or actually one WITH rules – the Jews, and one without rules – the Gentiles). And that didn’t add up because it meant YHWH was a polygamist, and all the ONEness I saw throughout the Bible didn’t square with this “house-divided” theology.
Surely you can see some, if not all of this, Chris. When I look back, there is such a relief not to be where I was before, believing as I believed. And I only wish YHWH would have gotten me out of there sooner, knowing what I know now. It is freeing. Have you ever stayed in something longer than you should have – a job perhaps? You want to leave, but as bad as it is, there’s a feeling of safety there that makes it hard to leave and the unknown scares you a bit. So you stay. One day when you do leave and you’re in a better situation you think, “Why did I not get out years ago?! I wouldn’t go back there now for a briefcase full of a million dollars!” I realize analogies often fall short, but it was kind of like this for me in leaving the Christian church. Though I am filled with questions even to this day about things, I at least can find the answers, whereas before, oftentimes even my questions seemed to anger pastors or lay people (or at best, confound them into frustration). This search for truth, as Daniel (Netzari) spoke of before, is such a thrill and a wonder. My eyes are being opened little by little and the truth is here in my Bible. The dots have been starting to connect for the last 2 1/2+ years like never before, though I have a long way to go.
Man, I can only tell you, jump out of the plane, Chris. Just let go. You have a great chute on your back. You don’t know it yet, but after you jump out of the plane you’ll look back up and see that the engines are ablaze and it’s about to take the plane down in flames.
I apologize for my jeering tone earlier. It wasn’t right and I am sorry. I hope you’ll forgive me. It just frustrates me (which is not the right attitude) to see you white-knuckled and hanging on for dear life to a flaming plane. If you could only see what those of us who believe as we do, see, it would rock your world in a great way. But it’s so scary to believe that so much of what you have been taught and what you grew up believing could be in error, but yet so easy to see how it COULD have happened. (Admittedly, I was angry and confused at first as I started learning some of the things that now make so much sense to me. “That’s not what I’ve always heard!” I’d exclaim.) And of course, not EVERYTHING we grew up learning “in church” is wrong – it’s just not. But so much of it doesn’t jive with what the word teaches. It just doesn’t. And when I see the denominational systems and many of those in them so angered by those of us who have the “audacity” to question and do our own due diligence, it makes me realize more and more that I’m onto something. After all, who were the ones who were bent on taking Yahshua down, if not for so much of the religious leadership of that day – the system that was in place who enjoyed their power and prestige and didn’t like being questioned.
Jump, Chris. You won’t regret it.
I hope you continue the quest. I do care about you.
Remember: “…ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.”
Shalom,
Vic
VIC,
I am grateful for your response and your apology. God bless you my friend. My views are unpopular here and tend to emote an awful lot of reaction from people who vehemently disagree with me. I am just sharing my views on this blog as is everyone else. I think that for a lot of the people here I represent a demon from their past. Because of their hatred for Christianity or Christian doctrine, my presence draws out their most intense feelings of anger and frustration. What makes it worse is that I am consistent to stick by my guns although my views are widely rejected here. I think many just wish I would go away! And actually several have indicated this openly.
I am on a quest for truth. My Thesis for my Masters Program has afforded me an opportunity to put together a paper that deals with all the major issues I have observed which have been brought out and discussed on this site over the past two years. I will be challenged to examine my faith like never before. But I wouldn’t count on me changing my stripes either. I will go where the evidence leads regardless of what anyone else says about it.
Thanks for sharing your story friend!
Chris,
I don’t want you to go away
The frustrations I express on here meant to be directed towards false doctrines. Also, my suspiciousness (if that’s a word lol) is meant to be directed towards doctrines I do not agree with at this time in my walk with Abba. My frustration was never meant to be directed toward you as a person. Love you brother. 
I wish it were possible to shove him out of the plane…I love him and want to speed up the process. I understand that it is not possible to step for someone else…or force them and believe it or not I have peace in that.
Same here, Scot. Inasmuch as I’ve been frustrated with him at times, I love him, too. (I’m sure many folks have been equally, if not more frustrated with me about a variety of things!) I would love to have his zeal in this fox hole because if he ever saw what so many of us now see, It’d be interesting to hear what the spirit would reveal to him in his studies of the word (from the “Hebraic” perspective, of course). Would be cool.
Chris, I appreciated the honesty in the comments you made where you said, “…my research has forced me to re-examine the issue of the feasts and the Sabbath. I am being stretched and challenged. I am taking the most critical look at my views that I ever had.” That was a breath of fresh air and made my heart glad. It sounded a little like you were standing in the door of that plane and pulling the goggles down over your eyes (though I could be wrong – just praying and hoping). I had to do the same thing 2 1/2+ years ago. It wasn’t easy at first, but it sure was worth it after I “jumped out of the plane” away from the way I had thought/believed/”walked” for so many years of my life.
Praise YHWH.
Just a few thoughts…
I just wanted to point out that it is very possible that the Anti-Christ and the False Prophet sit on the Mount of Olives NOT the Temple Mount. Judaism, Christianity and Islam all believe that the Mount of Olives is the Judgement seat for the whole world…Christianity believes that when Yeshua returns, He returns to the Mount of Olives…I would posit that the Anti-Christ and the False Prophet are on the Mount of Olives and are ? Crushed or Pinned or something by Yeshua as He returns (when He sets his feet on the Mount of Olives it splits in half, the remaining people of YHVH are supposed to flee THROUGH this pass to safety…I am assuming one of the cities of refuge in the mountains of Israel and Jordan).
Wouldn’t it seem logical that the Anti-Christ and the False Prophet ‘sit’ and execute judgement bathing the Mount of Olives in blood from the saints (both Jew and Torah Observant Christian) before the return of our Lord?
Why are you to run when you see this thing? Because the wrath of the Lord is going to descend on all the people watching the ‘spectacle’ of the execution of the saints from the hills of Jerusalem. As our Lord Yeshua’s blood was spilled on Mount of Olives and cries out to the Father…so will ours.
It may be our ‘punishment’ for creating the rebel state of Zion (after the government of Israel decides to divide the state and Jerusalem and gives half of the land that belongs ONLY to our Father to the false god allah). Many Rabbis have already declared (it is NOT covered in any media…you have to be at the rallies and hear them say it in person)…that there will be NO division of the land of Israel and Jerusalem and that if there is, they will declare the birth of the nation of Zion…(how is that for fulfilling Revelation 12)!
We are already being accused of ‘war mongering’ etc in the media and the division of Israel has not taken place yet (!) so it makes sense that they are telling the world that without the Zionist there will be peace and safety…the ‘sins’ of the world can be pinned on ‘us’…and they will say, “without these Zionist the whole world will know peace and safety…” This isn’t even a stretch from what is already being said and how the hatred is funneling our way…just imagine what it is going to be like after we declare Zion (Judea and Sumeria) one nation, without division, under God.
Anyway…shalom,
Christian Hart
…wow. Just read all of these posts. ALL. I’ve been seeking something since 1994. I grew up in the Church of Christ…that’s like the bottom rung of “Christian orthodoxy”. DO NOT clap your hands in “church”. DO NOT play an instrument or you WILL go to hell (unless you play in secular circles. That’s OK.)…etc. I thought all the other DENOMS were going to hell and that we were the ONLY ones right. Made my way out of that (with God stirring me) in ’94 after spending 24 years there (starting at birth). One step closer to the door of the “planeâ€?
Over the years I went through various other congregations (churches of Christ that were considered heretical by typical CoC standards) and denoms (Pentecostal to Baptist…actually met Scot while going to CCM in Lake City 10 years ago!). I’m now attending a “Baptist church†and have been growing in my discomfort at an almost exponential level.
As I read this, all I can say is that I haven’t been this stirred in a long time. I’m a believer and have The Spirit of Christ dwelling in me. I’ve been reborn…regenerated…have become an enemy of my flesh and seek to become more like Christ every day (HE must increase and I must decrease). I have a million questions and am desperately seeking to know the Will of God regarding this whole “church†issue…but, like Chris, am unsure of what the outcome will be. Unlike Chris, I do NOT think that there is much if any defense for typical “Christian Orthodoxyâ€â€¦it’s just so out of whack with what the Word presents. And don’t even get me started on the whole EASTER (Ishtar) thing! Talk about raised hackles…
One question I have is regarding this “burning plane†that was mentioned. Do you guys not believe there are any TRUE believers on that plane? I mean, if there ARE believers on it that DON’T jump, what, in your opinion, happens to them when the plane crashes (those whose hearts truly belong to Yeshua)? And…by the way…what is the metaphorical plane crash of which you speak?
(Scot, this is Ken!) <— who is eagerly searching
(When I say “Christian Orthodoxy”, I mean the status-quo man-made traditional church…be it Baptist, Methodist, Pentecostal, etc)
PASTORSSSSSS!!! YES! Thanks Scot! (watching POC 4 now). I just TRIED to address my concerns regarding this (probably naively if I thought it would change anything) with the “youth pastor” (not to be confused with the HEAD PASTOR who retired in Feb) at the baptist church I’m currently attending.
HalleluYah, Josiah624 – just KEEP seeking Abba. He NEVER turns away from a willing, sincere, humble heart. Yah bless you as you and keep you as He teaches you brother.
This is really a huge deal for me…I’m no longer satisfied with where things stand now (with “church” I mean)…and I have no idea really where to go from here. Praying every day for God to show me what to do……..feeling sort of in “limbo”…
Josiah…We have all been there. It is like Abram…He left his family and homeland and went to the land that YHVH showed him. He became a “Hebrew” (one who crosses over). It is what we are all commanded to do…”get out of her MY PEOPLE…”
Most of us are isolated except for feast gatherings and internet blogs, but it’s getting better all the time.
So….what do you do in place of “church”? I mean, do you have a regular local assembly?
On the Sabbath I study, rest, and socialize in places like this. I don’t have a lot of options. Others do have congregations they feel comfortable going to, but most are quite isolated. Some people continue to attend their church in hopes of sharing what they have learned with others. If you have that option and desire then you can be a light for them.
When I left the organization I was associated with in Feb 2006 it was to remove myself from hypocrisy in the leadership. When I brought up the issue with the elders I was told to repent or be punished. I chose to leave…my wife gladly followed. Only a couple of the friends we made over 20 years will talk to us. My wife’s family will not talk to us or our older children. We had to start all over again.
Now I was free to study what I wanted, and I continued to be led to Hebrew roots. I started to learn of the feasts and their significance. The more I did, as far as living out the Torah, the more I learned. There is still so much to learn and what seems like little time to learn it. I spend a lot of time studying, and will never follow one man or group. Y’shua is my leader (leads me to YHVH).
Of course doing is more important than learning (see Ecclesiastes 12), and the more you do the more you learn. The time will come when people will definitely seek us out to explain what is going on in the world.
Josiah,
I think you will start to feel that your thirst for truth and righteousness begin to get met as you start studying here with us and at other sights that us brothers and sisters mention.
I have always liked that name Josiah
It seems like many of us have had the same experiences. My husband & I left our church a little over a year ago & no one from there talks to us anymore. Even on facebook, when we comment on something that is being said – the conversation just stops when we enter in, even if it has nothing to do with religion. I’m thankful that one of my sisters & her husband also believes like we do, but no one else in the family does. My husbands parents & siblings think he must be suffering from Alzheimers or having some type of midlife crisis & have suggested he gets counseling!! Don’t know what they think is wrong with me!! We study at home on Shabbats & there are a couple of families that come over & spend the day with us, we have a wonderful time. It’s interesting how YHVH brings likeminded people together.
Just want to thank Scot for elaborating on the falacies in the Hebrew movement because I am new to this. In january 2011 I began to realize I’ve been grafted into the commonwealth of Isreal. Now I tell my christianfriends I’ve become an Isrealite. And now you tell the same thing in one of your video’s
. In november 2010 I started reading Jeremia and was extremely touched by YHWH’s plan to deliver His people 
. I never realized His plan of salvation is that big and mighty but He is our Mighty! Then one thing after another started to happen. I was LITTERALY drawn towards psalm 119 and prayed over it. I began to question christmass, easter, and even dieteraylaws! YHWH began to show me His word is Thora and by degree I began to see everything in a whole new light. And then something else happened. I was hungry and went on the internet to listen to a preaching. I listened to a praching called ‘Be holy’ and at the same time I heard this song from Leeland called ‘Pure Bride’. At that moment I knew the Ruach Hakodesh wanted to teach me something. Now I know Yeshua want me to keep His thora because He is coming back for a pure bride, and now I also know YHWH’s has written HIs Thora on my heart 
. Now He has invited me to join His sabbaths, and His feasts. Next week I am invited to celebrate passover 
. I cannot imagine this happening to me but YHWH is inviting everyone whosoever will (like you say in one of you video’s) 
! Thanks for your teachings. The two house theology is something new to me but thanks for teaching it’s not about genealogy!
Welcome, Aline. Thanks for sharing your testimony with us. May our Father continue to bless you as you learn and grow towards him. Have a wonderful passover.
.
Welcome Aline!
This is how we know it is YHVH doing the working in us because the experiences are so similar as GregM, LoriB, myself, you and so many others have shared. Praise Abba from the depths of our being!
That is great Aline. Welcome
Thanks for welcoming me Duncan, Inetta and Rodney. I am so thankfull for YHVH bringing me in contact with different new people who wholeheartedly like to talk with me about His thora.
! See you. How beautiful to hear Abba has made us go through similar experiences!
Suddenly it made me remember what I read in Psalm 119: I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts. When I went to this first Sabbath two months ago I heard this message about romans 11 for the first time in a long time. I forgot to add in my testimony but it all added up to what I read in Jeremia about His plan of restoration
Shalom!
Does anyone know of a GOOD video out there dispelling “easter” idolatry (showing the true origin of easter). I could post plenty of Scot’s videos but they’re a little long for what I’m trying to pinpoint. I found this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0b9ZZerYYM)…it’s good but, towards the end he mentions “foot washing” as a commanded ceremony which is ridiculous (NOT what Yeshua had in mind when He said they should wash each other’s feet)
Check out Jim Staley’s site at Passion for Truth Ministries. He has a link to his podbean site that has a lot of his videos on it. He’s done a couple of very good ones that give a basic intro to the pagan origins of many of the church festivals.
Bill Cloud also has an excellent 2-CD audio series called “The Easter Story – Peter Cottontail Exposed” where he goes into quite some detail about true origins of easter. He also compares it to the scriptures about Pesach and enourages the listeners to take it before YHVH and seek His guidance as to what is the right thing to do (he doesn’t try to tell anyone “don’t do this anymore”, he takes a very wise approach).
Thanks a ton! I talked to my wife last night and will show her the video regarding Holidays, etc. She’s not closed off to anything and knows the “church” has man’s fingerprints all over it. But she’s still unsure, as I am, about what direction to go or what to do (specifically)
Romans 9 and Genisis 13-18
Keeping in mind Israel is “the people of YHVH by covenant” and the “nation” is a charter. The Land of Israel is YHVH’s but given to Israel by him, and different borders than the “nation”.
True Israel is scattered amoung the gentiles and in the process of returning to “the land” and are of the promise, meaning they are in Yeshua and he in them, the fulfillment of the covenant of promise given to Abraham, renewed with Issac, renewed with Jacob, renewed with us in Messiah.
Josiah my brother,
The TRUE Israel are those grafted into the Olive Tree per Romans 11. Those who are in Covenant relationship (Torah observant) with YHVH the Father and Yeshua HaMashiach. Those who keep the Commandments of YHVH and have a testimony of Yeshua. There are very few in Eretz Israel right now. Probably number in the thousands.
Yhudah (Judah) is represented strongly. Remember that Yhudah was to go first back to the Land.
Yhudah is the Bow and Ephraim is to be the arrow. The two together will defeat their enemies.
There is a physical manifestation of every Spiritual Truth. What you call Physical Israel and the hoards of Amalak and Esav that surround them are a literal, physical, manifestation of what is to be a world wide conflict between the enemies of YHVH and the People of YHVH. It is by His Strength and His Power, and His Might and His Spirit that the battle will be won. We need to expand our vision. Remember the Promise to Avraham, Yitz’chak, and Ya’acov that his descendants will be as the stars of the heavens and the sands of the sea. Try to number them. But, the folks in Eretz Israel can now be easily counted. Try counting them throughout the world. Only YHVH knows who they are.
Thanks! That helps. I just couldn’t understand after listening to the teachings here what piece in the puzzle the nation in the middle east that calls itself Israel played. It’s still a LITTLE fuzzy. Up until my newfound understanding, I had always considered true Israel the ones who were Israel by blood (those in the nation). I knew somehow I was ingrafted, but couldn’t really make it all come together.
The fog is lifting…but still a little cloudy. A little more study and meditation should do it!
Well said David and I don’t try to ignore your posts…I love ya brother.
David said it well…there are TRUE ISRAEL there but is is a minority…
Thanks brother!
I love you as well. Shabbat Shalom.