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Welcome to Profound Prophecy International! This is a forum where doctrine is discussed. The views expressed belong to the individuals who post and do not necessarilty reflect the views of Profound Prophecy International or Scot Dryer. Have fun…but reflect the love of Y’shua haMashiach…shalom. Be bold…it is the evidence of YHWH’s Spirit working in you.
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Hi Scott!
I have a problem to register to Your web.Shalom Wladek
I am having trouble as well…perhaps Stephen will see this and come to the rescue.
Accounts are being created in WordPress, but the system is not sending out the confirmation emails (or any other email messages, from what I can tell).
Scot, please post a support ticket to GoDaddy.
Stephen — I want to start a new thread bit can’t see how to do it. Please migrate this to a new thread if you can.
–I hate to do this because Chris is sniping all the time but at my Shabbat observances, I was quite shocked by someone who said that Shaul’s letters were, well, NOT scriptural, just rabbinic commentary. No doubt it was halakhic but I had assumed everyone gathered was on the same page. My point was that 1 Cor 7:17-19 and Gal 5:2-4 say if we are called in uncircumcision then do not seek to be circumcised. But some in the group insist that it was the seal of the Abrahamic covenant and, well, based “on our personal conviction” we should be circumcised. But Shaul says he lays down as a rule that we should not be circumcised if we were saved as uncircumcised. That is, if we did get circumcised as required by Oral Torah, then we are agreeing with rabbinic Judaism that there is another way to salvation, i.e., by becoming a proselyte…even after we have been saved in Yeshua without being (physically) circumcised.
I tried to say that when we find our understanding of the Torah seemingly discordant with Shaul, we shoudl develop the reflex that I must be wrong, not Scripture (Shaul).
((I know that Galatians was about teh circumcsion issue alone NOT torah observance.)
How do we answer to Messianics who say that Shaul and certain parts of NT are not scripture? This encounter really shook me up. Say something brothers. Shalom.
Andy, a new post has been created for you. Shabbat shalom.
Andy,
I’ll be praying for you.
yeah i can’t even figure out how to get my picture on profile hahahaha navigation is very hard for me at this point too,,i know i will get it but yeah this thing is kinda tough to figure out,,,but i love you scot and i am so happy that you are doing what you are doing!!!!!!! BIG BIG shout out from the ice shelf in Antarctica yeah this is Russ’el by the way,,dude in the tree hahaha squirrelly bra hahaha ,,we are still here and will be moving camp one more time before we head out for the season,,it has been great to get away from the world and distractions and study study study,,,love you brother i am going to e-mail you sometime anyway i was thinking about coming to see you sometime soon love love love love you tell your wife hellllllllllllllllllooooooooo for me,,,,,,,,may YHWH keep you and bless you brother
brother scot!! i am new to this website so i have a couple questions (sorry if they are plainly stated somewhere else). are you a pastor/torah-teacher (whichever you prefer) of a congregation? also while i was looking at the contact info, i noticed the mailing address for this site is Lake City, FL. i live VERY close to there! do you have any kind of group meetings on shabbat? i would love to come. im 19 and have been learning torah for about 7-8 months now. but i have learned ALOT in general from watching your videos and i would love to learn more. you have great insight to these teachings kind of like Mark Biltz (another AWSOME torah teacher, his website is http://www.elshaddaiministries.us). the Ruach has blessed you greatly. Shalom to you!!
email me and I will give you my number…
scot@profoundprophecy.com
I have tried the past 3 days to register for this forum. Am told my email is already registered so I use my husband’s and they say my email won’t work. What’s up?
Hi Scot –
My family and I have begun observing the Sabbath and keeping kashrut for about a year.
I was wondering while the first believers in Yeshua worshiped on the Sabbath, did they not also gathered on the first day of the week?
Here are three points my pastor put to me which I cannot explain:
(1) Whenever the Ten Commandments are repeated in the New Testament (e.g. Matt. 19:18-19; Romans 13:9, etc.), the Sabbath commandment is never included in the list.In the book of Acts the Sabbath was used as a day of evangelism (see Acts 13:14-16; 13:42; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4). For Paul and the other Christian evangelists, the Sabbath day was indeed a work day, as they labored for souls.
(2) “And we sailed away from Philippi after the days of unleavened bread, and came unto them to Troas in five days; where we abode seven days. And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight” (Acts 20:6-7). Note what took place on this day: the disciples came together, they broke bread (communion), they heard the Word of God
preached, etc.
(3) “Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of
Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in
store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come” (1Corinthians 16:1-2). Paul requested that a special offering for the poor saints of Jerusalem be collected on the first day of the week which was Sunday.
Can you help me out?
Thanks.
–Andy
Until Scot responds, I recommend a good Bible software like E-Sword or The Word which are free. The word “day” in EVERY case (even when Yeshua was resurrected in the gospels) is added by translators. So, the phrase is “first of the week”. If you look at the word “week”, it is the word “sabbaton” which is the plural for sabbath in Greek, word borrowed from the Hebrew “shabbat”. So, the phrase is “on the first of the sabbaths” or “on one of the sabbaths”, what sabbaths, the 7 sabbaths of counting the Omer.
Shalom
Shalom Andy =)
Technically, there is no such thing as the “10 commandments”. They are called the 10 words. If the children of Israel didn’t interupt the Father from speaking the commandments from the mountain, Abba would have listed every single one of them to His people. The people stopped Abba at the tenth word (commandment) then told Moses to go up to talk to Abba alone because they didn’t want to hear Abba speak.
Of course, this is just getting technical lol. You know how asians like myself are…just technical haha.
Hi Andy, there is such a thing as making a mistake when translating and then outright deception. In this case, it is deception. The scripture should be translated, “on one of the Sabbaths”.
1Co 16:2 Upon the firstG2596[g2596 is correctly translated as upon or on] G3391 [g3391 should be translated as one, or one of] day [the word day is simply not even in the text. That is why it appears in italics in most versions] of the weekG4521 [and here is the kicker...g4521 means Sabbath not week!] let every oneG1538 of youG5216 layG5087 byG3844 himG1438 in store,G2343 asG3748 G302 God hath prosperedG2137 him, thatG2443 there beG1096 noG3361 gatheringsG3048 when(G3752) I come.G2064
If you have the dictionaries available, I would recommend looking these up yourself. If you don’t you should order the esword dvd from Clint at http://awakenedchurch.us1.list-manage1.com/subscribe?u=997710e8bd9be38aa69a24549&id=b16cbe52da
In case you don’t currently have the ability to check this, here are the first 7 instances of the word g4521…
Mat 12:1 At that time Yahshua went on the Sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were hungry, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.
Mat 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the Sabbath day.
Mat 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the Sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless?
Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Master even of the Sabbath day.
Mat 12:10 And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath days? that they might accuse him.
Mat 12:11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the Sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
Mat 12:12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the Sabbath.
The only time this word is translated week instead of Sabbath is when the translators are deceptively trying to show that the followers of Y’shua met on Sunday or that Y’shua rose on Sunday.
oops, I didn’t see your response, sorry
greg,
You are wrong about the rendering of the use of the Greek word sabbath. You need more than e-sword to do Greek exegesis. I would encourage you to buy a greek grammar and some good language tools. Your tactic is deceptive. I do not think it is intentional but you are incorrect none-the-less.
Bless you as you seek the truth.
Chris,
The great thing about e-sword and similar programs, is that you can add many of the tools you are talking about for free. Anybody can research the word in question for themselves, and see that it is indeed most often translated as Sabbath. They do not have to take my word for it, your’s or anyone else’s, but they can see it for themselves. In less than half an hour they can find all 68 occurrences of “sabbaton” (G4521) in the New Testament, and read every occurrence in context. Then they can make their own decision as to who is being deceptive.
Greg,
I understand the wonderful utility of a program such as e-sword. I have personally moved on to Logos 4 and I love it. E-sword is great for the entry level person who wants a basic entry level tool for Bible study. For Greek/Hebrew exegesis though a program like Bible Works 8 or Logos 4 is a must.
In addition an individual that can use the dictionary in e-sword does not know Greek or Hebrew anymore than someone in the streets of France with a English-French dictionary. And just as the person with the English French dictionary in France is lost in the French language so is anyone that attempts to understand the Bible using a tool like e-sword. That is why people go to seminary.
Chris said: “You need more than e-sword to do Greek exegesis.”
I submit to you that one needs more than Greek exegesis to have understanding.
Remember, the Pharisees believed they had the truth, accusing Yeshua of blasphemy while keeping the ones they deemed unworthy a safe distance from the Creator.
You portray yourself as one who has “arrived,” trying to force a spiritual peg into an intellectual hole. It’s ridiculous, it’s deceptive, and it needs to stop.
Outoftheintro,
I am not sure how I “portrayed”myself as someone who has “arrived”, maybe you could provide an example. If I have acted in an arrogant or prideful fashion please show me how so I can correct any inappropriate behavior.
What needs to stop is poor exegesis that is based on an e-sword dictionary. I only ask that everyone be truly diligent in their attempts to study and interpret the scriptures. This means study and the earnest effort to learn how to handle the biblical languages. I have certainly not arrived. I have zero experience in exegeting Hebrew and as a result I avoid speaking on the topic. I have too much respect for the text to speak ignorantly about the Hebrew language.
Now I do have a great deal of experience with Koine Greek. I have 3 years of translation training and study. I am very comfortable with Greek. Having said that I am not as proficient as I’d like to be but I can do basic exegesis, translation, and interpretation. The scriptures are both intellectually and spiritually discerned. Greek exegesis is both art and science. I am only suggesting that anyone on this site would benefit from a greater understanding of the Greek text.
Again Merry Christmas!
Apart from Abba, even the most diligent attempts to study and interpret the scriptures are fruitless.
Your last comment serves as a perfect example: “I have 3 years of translation training and study. I am very comfortable with Greek.”
Even Yeshua didn’t glorify himself! He pointed to the Father.
You have not arrived, Chris. There is no intellectual-based salvation, just as there is no works-based salvation.
Chris, you said: “The scriptures are both intellectually and spiritually discerned.”
It is precisely this line of thinking that will prevent proper discernment. Yet another perfect example of your having “arrived.”
Your arguments are inconsistent. First, you claim that Torah is ‘done away with’ because ‘Jesus did all that stuff for me.’
Then you boast over your astute interpretation of scripture, on account of your ‘great comfort with Greek.’
The scriptures are spiritually discerned. No amount of diligent study, no degrees or titles, no secret knowledge received from another, nothing apart from the Father reveals truth.
And, to quote Scot, if the Father wills it, “you can get truth from War and Peace.”
1 John 2: 16… 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, isn’t the Father’s, but is the world’s. 17 The world is passing away with its lusts, but he who does God’s will remains forever.
The things of the Set-apart Spirit are foolishness to the carnal mind. We are to be restored to the mind of Messiah, which is the example given by the righteous Seed from Genesis to Revelation.
Stephen,
I love you friend. I have not arrived. If you believe I come off as someone that has “arrived” then I apologize. My question for you is: Have you arrived? Because it appears that you are not only capable of discerning scriptural truth, but also discerning the heart and mind of those that post on this blog.
At any rate I hope you and yours have a wonderful New Year. If I offended you in any way please accept my sincere apology.
So true Chris,
to actually know the language is superior by far.
Personally I don’t know Greek, but, I have never had a desire to or I would.
I believe the language of YHVH?Yeshua and the authors of the Scriptures is good enough.
Shalom aleikhem!
Chris, you said about Greg “You are wrong about the rendering of the use of the Greek word sabbath”. But you did not say what was wrong with his exegesis and what the right exegesis would be in these specific verses.
Would you please clarify where Greg went wrong and how you would interpret them with these better tools like Logos 4 that you mentioned? I am not being sarcastic here. I just want to know how the verses could be understood differently. Looking at what e-sword and other Strong’s that can be found online give in regard to the use of the word Sabbath here, how could Greg be wrong? Please enlighten me.
Andy,
Thank you for your sincere question. Logos and Bible works provide Greek and Hebrew Grammars that provide both correct grammatical rules and principles as well as an understanding of important idioms. Greg’s rendering leaves out a common idiom used in the Greek text referring to the first day of the week. This can be seen in other Greek literature. At any rate E-sword and the like as great as they are, being free resources, will not teach you the grammatical rules, tenses, voices, moods, and idiomatic sensibilities of either language. Language study is an art and a science. A dictionary or a lexicon is a basic tool that is dangerous in the hands of those inexperienced with the rules of a specific language. This is one reasons you will never see me commenting on Hebrew Word studies. Until I study Hebrew I will keep my mouth shut.
My views about interpretation are unpopular here because they refute the conclusions that are required to be a good HRM adherent. But the fact is I speak based upon my education. If it is unpopular so be it.
Happy New Year!
Larry, Greg — muchas gracias! I think this pretty much takes care of objections (2) and (3). Maybe Scot or anyone else out there can help me with objection #(1) that “Whenever the Ten Commandments are repeated in the New Testament (e.g. Matt. 19:18-19; Romans 13:9, etc.), the Sabbath commandment is never included in the list.” Was it omitted because it was such an identity marker (like kashrut and circumcision) that it was not necessary to say so?
>> However, I think we could dismiss the argument that “In the book of Acts the Sabbath was used as a day of evangelism (see Acts 13:14-16; 13:42; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4)”, which is supposedly labor. On the Sabbath, we are to focus on HaShem; evangelism would be talking to people about Him, so that wouldn’t be labor. Would it?
Andy,
Funny you would equate spreading the Gospel as “Work.” That’s the same thing the Pharisees did.
David — you said on Dec 23 “Funny you would equate spreading the Gospel as “Work.†That’s the same thing the Pharisees did” — actually i was referring one of the objections used by people who refuse to teshuva which i had posted earlier! I don’t regard it as labor, which was the point. Shalom.
Scot says that the Rapture is not taught in scripture. How then should we interpret the harpazo in 1 Thess 4:17?
1 Thessalonians 4: 17
Then G1899 we G2249 which are alive G2198 and remain G4035 shall be caught up G726 together G260 with G4862 them G846 in G1722 the clouds G3507 to meet G1519 G529 the G3588 Lord G2962 in G1519 the air G109 : and G2532 so G3779 shall we ever G3842 be G2071 with G4862 the Lord G2962 .
G726: / αharpazo / har-pad’-zo / From a derivative of G138; to seize ( in various applications ) : – catch ( { away } { up } ) { pluck } { pull } take ( by force )
Does Scot mean that “pre-Trib†Rapturism is wrong as to its timing since 1 Thess 5:1-2 seem to tie the harpazo the the Day of the Lord which in v1 appears keyed tightly to the moedim (the times and the seasons)?
5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need that anything be written to you.
5:2 For you yourselves know well that the day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night.
Or: does Scot mean there is no rapture at all?
Can someone tell me whether Scot teaches about this in any if the videos on this site. I have gone through them but did not find any direct teaching on it except Scot saying this is a first response ministry to tell believers who are left rattled and shaken when the Trib starts and there has been no rapture.
Shalom.
Andy,
I will let Scot and his teaching speak for themselves.
But, There is no doubt that there will be a catching away of the True People of Israel. The only question is when? What are you getting yourself all in a twitt about?
Maybe we should start a new thread, this is the contact “thread”
Does 1 Thess 4:15 – 5:2 when read together not indicate that the harpazo is tied tightly to the 2d coming? Dude, no one’s in a twitt! Someone else had answered earier that I had understood Scott’s point wrongly, that he in fact does not teach there is no rapture bit that ther is no pretrib rapture.
Scot never teaches that the Rapture doesn’t exists in Scripture. He teaches that the PRE-TRIB Rapture doesn’t exists in Scripture. =)
There is definately a catching up. However, the catching up happens at the Secong Coming which is at the Resurrection.
Thanks, Netzari. That was helpful.
For those of us who are troubled — as I used to be — by the pretrib argument that it makes no sense for us to go up to meet Yeshua and then come down again if the Rapture be at the 2d Coming also — like a yoyo they say — I found the following argument helpful.
“It is worth mentioning the (legendary?) account that Josephus relates about the almost sacral reception in Jerusalem accorded to the Macedonian army under the leadership of Alexander the Great. The high priest had the city adorned with wreaths and the doors opened. Then people went to meet Alexander, the citizens clothed in white clothing and the priests in their official garb. To everyone’s amazement, Alexander fell down in adoration. Together with the high priest, he entered Jerusalem in order to bring an offering to the temple of the God of Israel {Jewish Antiquities 11.325b-39).”
Michael R. Cosby. “Hellenistic Formal Receptions and Paul’s Use of ΑΠΑÎΤΗΣΙΣ in 1 Thessalonians 4:17,” Bulletin for Biblical Research 4 (1994) : 15-34, describes all kinds of Hellenistic texts about the reception of a dignitary. Basically the whole town went out to greet the dignitary before he reached city limits so they could accompany him on the last mile back into town. This was in measure to his status, the more importnat he was, the further out the town went to receive him.
If so, Paul is likening our Rapture to meet Yeshua in the air and then we come back down to earth (on the Mt of Olives?) with Him. Thus:
“In the background of this passage… lies the image of the enthusiastic reception of a heavenly dignitary. (Yeshua) will be received as a monarch on the day of his visit to this world. When at his coming from heaven a spatial movement takes place from above to below, a delegation of believing people will go from below to above to meet him and accompany him. The traffic between heaven and earth will be going in not one but two directions! Then (Yeshua) will not disappear together with his own to heaven. Was the earth not his goal? That all believers will be taken up is thus not so much an evacuation for their own safety as a display of honor for the coming Messiah, who has come”.
Andy,
Do I understand you correctly, then, that you do indeed believe in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the gentile Christian church and the leaving behind of the Jews (to be dealt with and put “back under the law” as punishment for their not believing in Jesus) as so many denominations have taught for the last several hundred years? I’m just wondering, because I can’t quite understand (from what you said here) on which side of the debate you fall.
Thanks, Vic
Goodness me! Vic, I said “For those of us who are troubled — as I used to be — by the pretrib argument that it makes no sense for us to go up to meet Yeshua and then come down again if the Rapture be at the 2d Coming also — like a yoyo..”
This means I am not troubled by the pretrib argument of the yoyo anymore. Therfire I do not hold to a pretrib rapture of the gentile church.
The long quote that followed in my posting was smth to explain why the Yisrael of God would be raptured to meet Yeshua in the air and then return to the earth with Him. That it was in fact the way people used to go out to greet visiting dignitaries, so Shaul’s first readers would not have thought it strange that Paul pictured the Rapture as us going up and then coming back down with Him.
Personally, I have been imagining this thing and have come to the conclusion that, unless you are in Yerushaliym on that day, it won’t be a yoyo: you would be raptured up from Oregon, say, meet Yeshua in the air and come down with him on the Mt of Olives…or perhaps in Petra?
it’s true, no such thing as rapture (but resurrection/gathering), the term is misleading and implies escapism, typical of the Whore who says “I will see no sorrow”
You calling me a whore?
I know that’s how you perceive it, but no, I am calling religion Whore, like the scriptures call it
Partyman,
I’m pretty sure that Larry is referring to Revelation chapter 18, particularly verse 7, and not to any specific person on this blog.
Well there wise guy, every group of people who believe in a metaphysical being has some sort of “religion” to them. Christianity just happens to be different.
Partyman, the scriptures themselves identify religion as a harlot. Taking issue with Larry or Greg is misplaced.
Christianity has played the harlot just like her mother, fornicating with the kings of the earth.
Shalom.
She’s not different at all, that’s the problem right there. RE-ligion, whether Christianity or the rest, is people thinking they can RE-link with God on THEIR terms, which in essence is whoring, going after different commandments, different feasts, etc.
First off I don’t see how you can separate a group of people from their belief. I know that our terms of Christianity will be different, but bear with me here. If being a Christian means that I am a member of the body of Christ, and you call Christianity a harlot. It is like calling each and every member of that body a harlot. You can’t separate the two.
That’s what happens when we identify ourselves with a religion and not with whom Yeshua/Jesus identified himself, the Father only. Christianity has never been and will never be the redeemed body of believers (Israel of God)… she has believers in her, but also outside of her.
Here is an honest question just so that I can get a better understanding. What does it take to be a member of the redeemed body of believers?
Hi Partyman,
This is the first thing that came to my mind about what it takes…
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of Elohim, and have the testimony of Yahshua.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of Elohim, and the faith of Yahshua.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
It takes belief in Y’shua, AND obedience to the Father (the commandments).
Also you used the word redeemed, which means deemed again. Which shows that those in this group were at some point in the past “deemed worthy”, but fell from favor. When they are redeemed, they are deemed worthy AGAIN. They are not a NEW group, but are a group that have REturned or REpented. They are Israel…(those who are upright with God).
You said belief in Jesus or Y’shua and obedience to the commandments. Now in my understanding there are 613 commandments (more or less can’t remember the exact amount). Are we required to follow all of them?
Partyman,
We are required to obey whatever command YHWH is trying to get into us…in love for Him.
I work better with specifics. Greg said that in order to be redeemed or saved you must believe in Jesus/Yeshua and follow the commandments. Is it that we keep all of them from the first 5 books or are there specific ones. I can tell you that if we are to keep the law in order to be redeemed or saved there is no hope.
Partyman, Please let me have a try at it!
To answer your question, Yes, we are expected to keep EVERY COMMANDMENT!
NO, We do not receive our salvation because we keep them, We keep them because we have received salvation.
It is YHVH who makes it possible or impossible to keep His Commandments.
It is YHVH who makes us accountable for keeping each and every one that He makes possible for us to keep.
Some of the Commandments, He has now made it impossible for us to literially keep, such as the various sacrifices.
But, that is only Literal. We still have the ability to keep them in our heart, thus, we offer the calves of our lips, because we no longer have a Temple, nor a Levitical Priesthood, but because we have passed into the Melek Tzadik Priesthood, with Yeshua HaMashiach as our High Priest, and we are Priests in that Order under His Authority, now, we do all we are able to do to keep His Commandments according to His Will and His Word.
If you are failing to do that and you are still honoring the directions of the Roman Church with their Sunday Worship and their idols, YES, my dear soul, YOU ARE A WHORE!
The purpose of the Law is to reveal sin……period……
“”Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin,” (Rom. 3:20).
“What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, ‘Do not covet,’” (Rom. 7:7).
The purpose of law is to reveal sin and point us to a Savior that takes our sins away.
Galatians 3:23-25 (NASB)
23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Why any one want to return to the error of the Judaizers? Come now let us reason together!
Blessings!
&
Merry Christmas!
the law itself contains the acceptable sacrifice for not keeping an element of it…masterful plan…
Then what are acceptable sacrifices and which laws do those sacrifices cover. Would really and i mean really like a few examples.
Partyman,
I certainly would not want to sound self righteous by implying that I kept or even thought it was possible to keep all of the law. Some of the 613 that you mentioned do not even apply to me. What I do try to keep are the ten commandments and the food laws. I heard a very interesting interview lately on truth2u radio, which was showing the difference between the book of the covenant and the book of the law.
http://www.truth2u.org/2010/11/dr-david-perry-the-difference-between-statutes-and-judgments-the-division-between-covenant-and-law.html
My current belief is that our creator has given us specific instructions from the very beginning. These instructions later became part of covenants between God and Adam, Seth, Enoch, Noah, Abraham etc…These instructions were drawn on when other men/kings/governments made their own law codes (such as the Hammurabi code). Ancient law codes are based on YHWH’s instructions and not the other way around as “scholars” suppose. These instructions have been known to man from the very beginning and for so long, that they have become part of our consciences. The most important of these instructions are laid out in the ten commandments, which are part of the “book of the covenant” and NOT part of the law. The law was ADDED because of transgression to the covenant. Please listen to the interview in the link above for more details, and look up the scriptures that he quotes. I found it very interesting.
Chris,
You have been shown what a Judaizer is (one who leads people to the traditions of Judaism) and NOT one who points people to the law.
You have also been shown your misquotation of Galatians more than once. No more Judaizer allegations.
The law pronounces blessings and curses. Here is the key for the LAST TIME:
But the scripture hath concluded all UNDER SIN (curses that follow), that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe (hear and obey the law). But before faith came, we were kept (in custody) under the law (as sinners), shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law came into being as our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster (because the law does what it was intended to do).
The dispensational lie denies everyone from the cross afterward the benefit of God’s law as it is not here to point people to Messiah according to them. They have not sinned and as such do not need a saviour.
This passage is INTERPERSONAL and NOT DISPENSATIONAL. One thousand years before the resurrection, the day after the resurrection and two thousand years later IT STILL DOES THE SAME THING…when we violate it…it is there yelling “you violated me” so that we might look to YHWH and the lamb He provided, Y’shua. This is as simple as it can be.
Correct, every time we sin, we go back under the schoolmaster (the law which pronounces the curses for not obeying it), with the purpose of pointing us again to Messiah who saves. When we trust in Messiah, walk in the Spirit, hear and obey, we are no longer under the schoolmaster.
What is sin? Breaking the moral code, festivals, dietary laws, or breaking any of the 613 commandments. You aren’t clear on this. At least in my understanding of the scriptures I know what is expected. This jumbled up mess that you guys are into makes no sense at all.
1 John 3:4 – Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Doesn’t get any clearer than that, Partyman.
Ok, lets go back to my original question then. I asked if we are to follow all of the laws, 613 of them. Any Jew that I have talked to says 613 commandments which still means laws Say for instance am I in sin because I eat pork? Or am I in sin, because I don’t celebrate the festivals? This isn’t something to play back and forth on. If I am breaking the law and sinning then you all should make it clear.
Shalom partyman! Yeshua said: “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:17-19)
“And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.” (1 John 2:3-6)
Partyman, according to the Scriptures it is pretty clear that all the 613 in Torah are not nullified nor did away. For example the feasts of YHWH (including Sabbath), dietary laws etc which messianics teach a lot about applies to EVERYONE. But many Christians doesn’t know (I didn’t know it too before knowing the whole Truth) that all of 613 doesn’t apply to everyone because 613 includes laws, commandments and instructions which ONLY applies to:
-Men
-Women
-Priests (Levites)
-Masters
-Servants
-Kings
etc.
May Abba bless and guide you in your journey deeper into to the Truth.
Partyman, you are asking some really good questions here. It’s great that you’re digging, looking for answers, and I thank you for doing that here on the blog.
As for the commandments and whether we are to follow all 613, consider the commandments that cannot be kept right now, such as those for women only, those requiring the temple, or those requiring livestock, to name just a few examples.
Clearly, we can’t keep them all. So this begs an important question:
Since we can’t keep them all, should we keep any?
Is it possible for you to not be “in sin”? Is it possible for me, or for anyone else other than Yeshua? Is it possible for any flesh to not be “in sin” even for a single moment?
Because if it is, then why can’t our flesh enter the kingdom of heaven? And if it isn’t possible, then where does that leave us?
I ask these things not to lead you in circles, brother. They’re honest questions, and I believe the scriptures have the answers for those with the desire to know.
Partyman,
It is a process, like a child that starts with milk and then grows to solids…Living withing the parameters that our Father prepared for us will train us to be in the image of His Son, that is the goal. His word (if we walk in it) will work towards our grown in Him.
If you want start to understand it, start by resting on the Sabbath. Take this day to read and pray and the Father Himself will open your eyes, since you made your faith evident by your action.
Abraham inherited eternal life because he had faith right? But if he hadn’t taken his son to the mountain how could we know it? How that just believing with the kindness of his heart he would honor God and display God’s goodness on earth? We would not have know the picture of the Lamb of God right? That scene over there would not have happened. After that God told him more stuff to do and opened His eyes to the most important thing … “Abraham, your father, saw my days. He saw it and was glad” – Yeshua (John 8:56).
Here it is the math:
Faith without a visible action is dead.
Action without a invisible faith is vain.
Action in faith is the key and show in the visible what happened in the invisible.
…..
Small take on the dietary instructions of our Creator: There are many ways to understand the dietary instructions. One of them is that you will not be a sinner because you ate this or that, but you will be a sinner for not believing in the instruction of the Creator. After you start obeying this instruction, He will start revealing you some of the reasons. One of them is that by eating what it is not food you are changing the purpose that the Creator determined for you and the animal.
To say I have no sin would then classify me as a liar. I agree that the only way to get to heaven is through faith. The conundrum here is that if someone doesn’t keep the Sabbath, festivals, and dietary laws is it a sign that they aren’t saved? I happen to believe that the 10 commandments are good instructions to follow. Of course like all of you I fail in keeping them. It’s the ones that are outside of the 10 commandments that the issue is. Not only that, I hear about blessings of following the law, yet I hear nothing about the punishments. Is it only God that punishes for breaking the commandments or is that the duty of believers?
Partyman,
There has only been One who has kept them perfectly. That is why He had to die. It is not that we are expected to be perfect, we are only expected to do the very best we are able to keep His Commandments. You can go through life just as He did and never sin one time and you will still be lost because you were borned with sin in you. That doesn’t excuse us to not try and be obedient to His Word. If it is His Torah that shows us what sin is, then why in the world would you want to get rid of it? Don’t you want to know when your sinning, so you can do something about it? Satan has so blinded the eyes of man that they don’t even make sense anymore.
Partyman,
If you love YHVH/Yeshua, don’t you want to please Him?
Instead of listening to all the churches and religions and Chrises out there, why don’t you listen to His Word? Instead of allowing some other man to interpret it for you, why don’t you take it at face value? Why don’t you take Him at His Word? Step out and “Set Shabbat Apart” and study His Festivals and try observing them? What are you going to lose? face? Do you want to know the truth and please YHVH or do you want to look religious to all the church folks?
See David, I find your post to me a little insulting. First off I don’t listen to all the churches and religions. I believe that there are some very good theologians out there better studied than I am, but I look to the Bible to shape my theology. To say that someone interprets it for me is an insult to my intelligence and I would say to you why don’t you get into the Word and stop listening to all the Scotts out there. Next of all I have found no reason to set apart the sabbath and festivals. I have a hard enough time trying to keep some of the moral commandments and it is a result of my salvation that I make any attempt. I have read the other posts on here and all I can find is arrogance which is just like the pharisees in Jesus’ day.
Sabbath is ALL OVER the NT…why did you attack me in a round about manner?
You go, Scot.
Partyman should watch your video on how Acts records at so many points that Paul kept the Sabbath and the Moedim.
To post one more question on where “the Lord’s Day” appears in scripture at Rev 1:10
>> I wasG1096 inG1722 the SpiritG4151 onG1722 theG3588 Lord’sG2960 day,G2250 andG2532 heardG191 behindG3694 meG3450 a greatG3173 voice,G5456 asG5613 of a trumpet,G4536
G2960 Kyrios and G2250 hēmera
Preachers read this as Sunday; should we take this instead to mean it was the weekly Sabbath which YHWH calls “My Day” somewhere? Someone help please!
κυÏιακ
Hi Andy,
The problem I have with “the Lord’s Day” referred to in Revelation even remotely being considered Sunday is that there is absolutely nothing in Scripture that identifies the “first day of the week” as “the Lord’s Day”. It’s the Roman Catholic Church (as far as I am aware of) that defines “the Lord’s Day” as Sunday. Scripture simply does not make that statement.
Personally, I know of only two options here: John is either referring to the Day of the Lord which we read *so* often in Scripture or the weekly Sabbath since Yeshua did say he was Lord even of the Sabbath. My inclination is to believe that he is referring to the Day of the Lord since Revelation clearly speaks of things to come in the Day of the Lord.
I’m not ready to emphatically claim what specifically John is referring to in saying “the Lord’s Day”, but I feel very confident in saying to suggest it is referring to a Sunday is about as logical as suggesting it is referring to a Tuesday…there is simply no Scripture to directly back up that claim.
Carrie,
There are secondary sources in historical works where the same term is used in Greek literature and it is a reference to a Sunday Worship experience for believers. D.A. Carson book “From Sabbath to Sunday” is a great resource in figuring this out.
Carrie — I tend now to agree that the Lord’s Day in Revelation prob meant the weekly Shabbat because YHWH declares somewhere about the Shabbat that his is My Holy Day. Shalom.
If it is soooo hard to obey, then what it is the difference between a believer and an unbeliever? I mean…isn’t the blood of the Savior that enables us to do right? Isn’t his death and ressurrection the proof that we can do all things through Him?
Why is it soooo hard? His yolk is not burdensome. There is freedom and comfort in Torah.
Debra — I agree that His yoke is light. In regard to Partyman’s repeated question about the 613 commandments, I think it would only be fair that he gets a straight answer. I would have thought the answer is a big NO given that the 613 comprise the Oral Torah or the traditions of the fathers, which Yeshua railed against. We keep only those to be found in the Tanach. Please correct me here if I am wrong.
And Debra is right — it is not burdensome at all. It is a light yoke. When I consider what I am eating, and ensure it is neither common nor unclean, what comes to mind is HaShem. It is His Name that comes up before me because want to honor Him. It has nothing to do with hygiene etc It is all about Him. When I keep the Shabbat, that is because He said I should. Yeshua said it was made for us. So the Shabbat rest is good for me because it means I am keeping Him foremost in my mind.
May I suggest that the key is that it is all about Him, not us. In traditional Christianity, or rather in the individualistic Christianity that has come down to us from the “crusading evangelism” of Dwight Moody and Billy Graham, it is all about Man and his will, his choosing to believe. But in the scriptures, it is all about Him — Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated — so He chose us, not us Him. Everything is by, for and unto Him. Religion is Man centered. True faith is YHWH centered.
Andy, the ’613 commandments’ are all found in the text, and does not include the oral law.
Thanks, Stephen. However, was it not Rabbinic Judaism — post-Yeshua — that came up withthis “613″ commandments? Sorry, maybe I should do some Goog;ling on this before posting this question. But if anyone knows definitivel, please post here.
Shalom.
No, Andy. Not exactly. The rabbis attempted to enumerate the commandments. Not everyone agrees on a specific number, but regardless, they’re all contained in Torah. Indeed, they are Torah.
The 613 Mitzvot Wikipedia page has an itemized list. Note the scripture reference for each one.
It’s absolutely critical to understand the difference between the takkanot and the mitzvot.
Amen, Andy, after all, why would He tell us to DO something if He knew it were impossible?
Deu 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
Deu 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
Deu 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
Deu 30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
What most find difficult is letting go of there pride. Comming to Abba like an empty cup, willing to let the word fill us.
Chris,
I rarely comment on this blog, but felt I needed to in this case. I DO have Logos 4 and am just beginning to research the words Greg mentioned above. So far he is right, you are wrong.
Have you ever heard the expression “Poking the bear”? The Merry Christmas comments would qualify.
Classic 1 Did you read the Greek Grammars in Logos 4? Which package do you have? That would affect your ability to research the Biblical languages. Do you have Silver, Gold?
To clarify my point Classic my point was not that the strongs dictionary in Logos is better (it is by the way) but rather that there are tools in Logos that you cannot have in e-sword. There are Lexicons, idiom books, grammars, Analytical concordances, and countless other Greek and Hebrew resources. Anyone that works with the biblical languages on a regular basis uses either Logos, or Bible Works for the most part. When I mean “work” with the languages I am talking about translation work, not word studies. And if one is serious about word studies they ought to learn the language in order to understand the context of words. At any rate I hope that this is helpful in clarifying things.
Have a Great New Year!
classic1, Chris would have you (as well as everyone else) believe that Logos software versions also affect one’s ability to discern.
2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Spiritual peg, intellectual hole. Don’t be deceived.
Stephen,
I did not say anything remotely close to what you just put forth. I would suggest that proper exegesis does require a real understanding of the text and context. And I believe that you and I agree that we also need to examine the text in light of its historical context. Spiritual discernment is key but is hindered without understanding the text, history, and culture. Please do not make a characateur of my positions and beliefs. This tactic lacks charity.
nicely put
Chris, you said: “Spiritual discernment is key but is hindered without understanding the text, history, and culture.”
Error through and through.
Spiritual discernment is hindered by disobedience. If the Father wills it, no textual, historical, cultural nor any other misunderstandings will prevent His revelation of the Truth.
Stephen,
I am at a loss. Help me understand are an anti-intellectual? Do you believe that all you need is the Spirit?
Chris,
I have Logos 4, Gold. Just purchased in November. Does that qualify as prestigious enough?
As I stated, I have only begun to research. I used The English-Greek Reverse Interlinear, English Standard Version for my first round. According to this resource, the verse reads….”On the first of every week…..”. First of every week is clearly sabbaton.
It is laughable and repulsive to imply that one must “work with languages” to discern the meanings of things the Holy One of the Universe wishes us to know. While gaining knowledge will certainly serve to further our understanding and gaining knowledge should be a lifelong activity, your condescending attitude is bewildering to me.
Classic 1,
Its not a mattter being prestidgious, notice I didn’t state which Logos package I possess. The point was that not every package has the same resources.
If you cannot understand the language a text is written in you will always be at the mercy of the Bible Scholar and the linguist to discern the meaning of words in context. All I am saying is that study of the languages is a good thing. BUT having an intralinear or a Storngs dictionary is not the same as studying a language. I know didly squat about Hebrew. Scot has taught me most of what I do know about it from just listening to him talk about the characters etc. Am I threatened by Scot’s knowledge of Hebrew? No! I respect it!
How can any serious student of the scriptures claim that understanding the biblical languages is anything but a good thing? I am not sure what is condescending but I will continue to be criticial of word studies that consist of nothing more than reading a dictionary. That is not exegesis, it is deceptive and often ignorant.
Even plain, no-bible-software, YLT 1898 (Young’s Literal Translation) is closer to the truth, unbiased, it renders “first of sabbaths” in Matt 28:1, Mark 16:2,9, Luke 24:1, John 20:1,19. These sabbaths (plural) are well know in Judaism as the 7 sabbaths of counting the omer between passover and shavuot (pentecost) which fits well the context of the first (of 7) weekly sabbath after Passover on which Yeshua was resurrected. The bias is seen though in Acts 20:7 and 1 Cor 16:2 where it is translated “first (day) of the week”.
That’s because it was the first day of the week which the Greek clearly states in a typical idiom that can be found in other extra-biblical literature. I suggest doing some additional study rather than reading your own bias into the text. But thats just me.
By the way Happy New Year Larry!
Chris,
Sabbaton is of Hebrew origin, NOT Greek… even if you were right, I could care less what the Greeks have done with the word, how it “evolved”, twisting its meaning… again, you are reading your extra-biblical greek bias into the text and going in circles. The context in Corinthians is BEFORE Pentecost as verse 8 states, the text should say “one of the sabbaths”, the 7 sabbaths until Pentecost. There are about 3 more months until new year, Exod 12:2 This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you. (the month of Aviv when Spring and the year start and when Passover is celebrated, NOT the middle of winter when everything is dead).
Larry,
I understand, yes Sabbaton is a word that is borrowed from Hebrew but it is indeed a Greek form of a word. How it is used during the first century matters. It may not fit into your paradigm but it does matter.
Chris,
It is a HEBREW phrase/concept (hebraism) translated into Greek… what the HEBREWS DID MATTERS (counted the sabbaths or days of the omer), NOT what some Greeks understood or did. You got it backwards like usual, because it does not fit your greek paradigm. We’ve been over these things many times. We’re talking about Hebrews, Israelites, Jews and THEIR culture, NOT Greeks and theirs. How does one say in Koine Greek “one of the sabbaths”? “Mia Sabbaton”, which is what the text reads. The context of the passages also is the period of time between Passover and Pentecost (feasts which Paul and everybody else kept as it is clear in Acts and Corinthians) which in that time (and today) was known as the 7 sabbaths or 49/50 days of counting the omer which the greeks and you are not familiar with, even despise it. And like I said in my previous comment, even YLT gets it (almost) right in all 6 instances in the gospels, has “first of the sabbaths”.
Chris,
Loool, how can a Hebrew word be Greek? This is laughable and embarrassing…ALL of your “extra-biblical” sources WITHOUT exception go back to/are based on majority greek scholars “ruling”/tradition of the meaning of ONE SINGLE use in Luke 18:12 which KJV renders “I fast twice in the week…” This passage can have 2 meanings, “I fast twice the Sabbath” or “I fast twice in respect to Sabbath”. Both are valid and have nothing to do with counting days as in 1,2,3…7 days ‘a week’. Syriac Luke (peshitta) has the latter (which in fact was a typical Jewish use/hebraism at the time), but there is ample evidence that the first one could in fact be the correct one.
Even if “sabbaton” had a secondary meaning of “week” (which becomes more and more clear it doesn’t), ALL passages (except for only one that has “protos sabbaton”) have “mia sabbaton” which would have to be translated then “one of the week” which doesn’t make sense, while “one of the sabbaths” is the clear choice for the reasons I mentioned earlier.
Insightful, Larry. Thanks for those explanations. It really does make sense that way, doesn’t it! I was really glad to have read your comments here (and to be made aware of the YLT saying what it does – nice).
I recently said to someone very near and dear to me who really gets all torn up and bent out of shape over it being said by some that the “New Testament” was originally written in Hebrew, “I CAN accept that the ‘New Testament’ MAY HAVE been written in Greek, but you CANNOT accept that it MAY HAVE been written in Hebrew. Why IS that?”
Larry (or someone else), why IS that such a flash point of anger so often? Is it that the Greek so distorts the truth and perpetuates comfortable falsehoods and deceptions (subconsciously to the “Greek only” adherents)? What is it? Why is “Original Greek NT v. Original Hebrew NT” such a volatile issue?
Vic,
The reason that most informed evangelicals can’t accept the view that the NT was written in Hebrew is that we have 5,000 or so Greek manuscripts and almost none in Hebrew or Aramaic. And the Hebrew and Aramaic texts that we have were almost certainly translated from the original Koine Greek which was the lingua franca of the ancient first century world. In addition the examples of suppossed “Hebrew texts” such as Shem-Tov’s Matthew we find that the text is totally corrupted and unreliable which even Nehemiah Gordon admits in several places in his book the Hebrew Jesus Vs. The Greek Jesus.
Hey Chris. Yes, I understand about the quantity of the manuscripts, as I’ve done a fair amount of reading on that in the past. Unfortunately I wasn’t very clear in what I said. Number of manuscripts aside, let’s say there were an equal number of each and that we didn’t know which came first, the Greek or the Hebrew. My point was, in my experiences with the conversations I’ve had with different people, it seems that there is almost always an angry resistance to the idea that the “New Testament” COULD have first been written down in Hebrew.
So why is that?
Vic,
It wouldn’t bug me if it was even remotely possible, which it is not. I think the problem with most believers is that they know that the manuscripts were penned in Greek and trying to convince them otherwise appears like an attempt to completely change their view of reality. It is is such a doumented fact that the scriptures were penned in Koine that any other suggestions feels like an attempt to deceive. It is a strand of orthodoxy to a certain extent in Christendom and anyone that challenges it is going to be questioned harshly. Unorthodox views in a religion that spans 2,000 years of history will never be welcome. That is an immutable fact.
Chris,
For your information, I have been around christian intellectual elitists all my life. Pastors, teachers, seminarians one and all. All claim to “know the original languages”, all claim to “know the context”, all have a shallow, conceptual faith.
By the grace of God, (and God alone), I was led to study the hebrew roots of my faith. I have found a scripture on scripture approach that I have NEVER
Classic1,
When I saw the word “seminarians” I read “Sumerians” lol I was like… What? You were around Sumerians?? lol
Classic 1,
What is your issue with people that pursue and education any how? I mean anyone that sumbits themselves to the hard work that is entailed in earning an advanced degree is to be admired not shunned. Seriously, studying at the Masters level is no joke.
sorry, i hit the enter key!
found in my 35 years in mainstream christianity.
And, btw, I am not a total fan of this blog, not a sellout to Profound Prophecy. There are things I like and things I don’t like. However, I will take the honest, scripture on scripture approach I find here over the phoneys I worked with at…….Theological Seminary any day of the week.
You may say you are different, but anyone with any discernment can read between the lines of your posts.
Thanks for allowing me to comment.
Chris,
Your sticktoitiveness is to be commended. However your Spiritual knowledge is wanting. You are up against many on this web site who are seasoned veterans in dealing with the false doctrine produced by the constantinian church and her daughters. You continue to beat the wind.
It is sad that such a good character trait is so waisted. You could accept the truth and be a mighty force for YHVH! As it is presently, you have chosen to be in the camp of the enemy of YHVH! My heart aches for you Chris. I long to call you brother but I cannot.
Your imagined intellectualism and training in christopaganism is doing nothing but driving you deeper into traditions of men and clouding your soul and hindering the Holy Spirit. I pray you repent before it is too late!
David
David,
Everytime I get close to seriously considering your view of the early church and the hermeneutic you espouse I find something from history etc. that seriously contradicts and refutes your view. I am where I have always been. I am still searching the scriptures and historical references but it does not bode well for your movement. When push comes to shove you are practicing the same error as the Ebionites before you. To make matters worse, for every compelling proponent of your belief system there are 3 fools that seem to undo all the good of your strongest arguments. And I am not referring to anyone on this blog. I am speaking specifically of the HR stuff I am reading in print. It is embarrassing for your movement. Some of the written material is good, most of it is awful.
2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
There it is, that all-too-common passage. So common that it’s obviously become easy to ignore.
Chris said, “I find something from history etc.”
History. Et cetera.
Notice he did not say scripture.
Precept upon precept. Line upon line.
NOT church father upon church father, Logos package upon Logos package, Greek translation upon Greek translation, or any other such nonsense that Chris holds in higher esteem than the very Words of our Creator Himself!
Scripture interprets Scripture. The Word interprets The Word.
Remove the Spirit of the Father from the equation and even the greatest intellect in the history of mankind cannot properly discern.
Stephen,
When I use scripture here I am simply ignored or attacked from 20 directions. Really? Why is it you never have a discussion with me? You are always dropping on liners. Please engage me in some conversation of substance. If you want tom talk scripture I’d be happy to oblige.
And uh…..the Greek TEXT is the scripture!!!!!
Chris, let’s discuss the sabbath, shall we?
The Greek texts are part of the scriptures. The Hebrew texts are the other part.
yes, and in fact THE Word is neither hebrew nor greek, but was/is communicated through languages which are tools (although Semitic languages are much closer to the cyclical nature of God’s work and purpose, etc.), before Hebrew who knows what languages God used to communicate to people
Chris, I’ve been discussing with you for months now. Others here have been for years.
It’s all archived and available on this site for everyone to see.
Chris,
Please tell me that you are NOT aware that many of the Dead Sea Scrolls were of first century origin AND written in Hebrew. BOTH testaments bow to Semitic origins, plainly. The FAULTY assumption that we look to Rome (Christian Orthodoxy) is plainly ignorant as she was centuries removed from the dialogue in the first place.
Your comment regarding HR blunders from leaders is true (as are blunders from baptist leaders) as some things they do is embarassing but it is also dishonest at its core. An HR teacher that is off by a few years on some prognostication is FAR BETTER OFF than the head of a Southern Baptist Convention who ISN”T EVEN WATCHING cause “he isn’t going to be here anyway.” Not only will he be here but will give answer for his boasting about God’s law being done away with while the HR guy just had flawed understanding but still told people to OBEY.
It would be foolish for me to allow you to slip that in unchecked. Some rogue HR guy that gets a wild hair and slips up vs. an entire multi-million member institutioin that profits on POINTING PEOPLE AWAY from YHWH’s commandments…no comparison.
I cannot believe that you can’t see the rift and where the dividing lines are being drawn. The lines are NOT between Islam and Christianity and neither have they ever been. The antichrist IS NOT the Christianityless one…he is the Anarchist\Antichrist or LAWLESS ONE…without and against THE LAW. He also has a whore…
“She’s a brick house, she’s mighty mighty…lettin it all hang out…” She loves the abuse, she is loud and unrestrained (by her master’s yoke) and she is gonna get a beating by her pimp…that enters into her daily.
What religion would you say meets with Assad the most…YUP, you gessed it…CHRISTIANITY…I bet I have two or three Christian pics for every 1 Muslim RELIGIOUS leader. Notice I said religious.
Explain to us the bond? What is the cord that binds?
(Ps 119:53 [KJV])
Horror hath taken hold upon me because of the wicked that forsake thy law.
(Prov 28:4 [KJV])
They that forsake the law praise the wicked: but such as keep the law contend with them.
It might be right to ask…is there a working definition for “the wicked?” Why YES there is, as well as the righteous.
Psalms 1
Blessed man = those whose DELIGHT is in the TORAH of YHWH……NOT SO “THE WICKED”
(Hab 1:4 [KJV])
Therefore the law is slacked, and judgment doth never go forth: for the wicked doth compass about the righteous; therefore wrong judgment proceedeth.
Chris…you are on the wrong side of that equation if what you say is what you truly believe. I wish it wasn’t so. God’s law is good. Excuses from misquotations from Paul are ALL DRIED UP…and widely known…just not in Roman (Christian Orthodoxy) but who is looking there anymore? Don’t you see Abba has allowed them to be in darkness concerning where we are prophetically. Why?
(Prov 6:23 [KJV])
For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light (LAW = LIGHT); and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:
(Isa 8:20 [KJV])
To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to THIS WORD, it is because there is NO LIGHT IN THEM.
The reason they are in darkness? Because LIGHT “has been done away with” for them of course.
Don’t you see these EQUATIONS?
““She’s a brick house, she’s mighty mighty…lettin it all hang out…†”
Loool… Kool & the Gang… hilarious.
Sadly Scot, no, Chris doesn’t see it, even though the evidence in front of him is something akin to a blazing 1,000-watt lighthouse bulb. He’s standing atop the lighthouse with his nose touching the glass housing at 2 o’clock in the morning, and proudly boasting that there is no light in front of his burning face and eyelids.
Speaking of “2,000 years of (Christian) history,” which Chris often refers to at this blog, here’s a link (I’ve posted previously) as a strong counterpoint to that often-chanted mantra:
http://torahresource.com/EnglishArticles/2000Years.pdf
Even more stupefying and sadder still in all of this is that these very same people (who incessantly beat on the “…but Paul said…” drum) will look you in the eye and tell you, “There are no contradictions in the Holy Bible” out of one side of their mouth, while out of the other side of their mouth they’ll tell you Paul (whom I love and greatly admire) entered the scene and taught contrarily to what was already written.
Someone please tell me if that makes any sense at all. There is much dishonesty and hypocrisy in this whole debate. Do dishonesty and hypocrisy come from the person who sees, teaches, and who tries to live by the consistent, unified message found all throughout the scriptures (from Genesis to Revelation)? Or do they come from the person who says there are no contradictions, yet unabashedly sets forth contradictory arguments often, and lives a life indicative of having embraced these contradictions?
Back to the Greek v. Hebrew debate for a minute – Chris, you said, “It (the possibility of the “New Testament” originally being written in Hebrew) wouldn’t bug me if it was even remotely possible, which it is not.” Really? Not remotely possible? (That reminds me of Al Gore and his “The debate is over” comment he made about global warming.) How can you say that it’s not possible? How can you not think it possible that there are many caves, etc. yet to be found containing more scrolls? Why does it seem so ridiculous for a Hebrew-speaking people to have written in their native tongue? (And before you bring up the dead old arguments about how everyone spoke Greek everywhere, think about it: If English was the language you grew up speaking in your home, but you also started speaking French at some later point, and you were tasked with writing something of magnanimous importance down – would you do so in French? No, of course you wouldn’t.)
I think that the use of ’2000 years, then it must be right’ is very naive. We see in the scriptures when long periods of time the people of Israel didn’t obey the commandments and everything seems fine, even the ‘prophets’ would tell them that everything was fine. Guess what? It wasn’t…just read the next chapters when the judgment comes.
We must be grateful that we have the written word to go back to, since we can not trust man (what does it say about man that trust another man?). Paul is not God, Timothy is not God, The guy that came after Peter was not God or the one after him or the one after him…again…it is good that we have the written word so we can go back to it.
Amen!
Shalom Chris,
I guess I must confess that some of what you say is correct. There are many in what you call, “my movement” that sound like fools. Partly because of zealousness without knowledge. Of course you and I both know there is none of that to be found in the various Christian persuasions, right? HAHAHAHAHAHA!
I see you have invited my brother Stephen to have a real dialog with you! Does that invitation extend to me? Let’s talk! However, I would beg your pardon for about a week do to the fact that I am moving to a different town and that is very difficult for an old man. But, it would be good if we could renew old relationships and perhaps take it from a different approach and actually discuss Scripture rather than the personal attacks.
Regarding history that you claim refutes my view, don’t you think that Scripture trumps history. Can we allow history to take second place? It makes no difference whatsoever what man has to say, it is only what Scripture has to say!
I am at a disadvantage from a historic approach because so called “church history” is on your side. But, it is not church history that we are to be allowing to lead us. It is Scripture. It is just as possible for Justin Martyr to be in error as it is for me. It is just as likely that the RCC has destroyed my historic advantage as it is that the Hebrew Roots Truth in its historic disadvantage is still the Real Truth!
I have noticed your change in strategy. You are trying to be very sweet and gentle in an attempt to show that you are real because of your love and that we are heretics because we continue to call error, error so that we look less loving. Well, that is a good ploy I guess, only that I have always loved you. It is the lie of your doctrine that I despise, regardless of what history says. Praise be to YHVH that my salvation is not guaranteed by history but by the Sacrifice of the Lamb of Eloheim that takes away the sin of the world.
Let’s talk Chris!
David
David,
I am trying to walk in love. Truth without love is often nothing but cruel. Sometimes I am harsh when I share the truth and I am trying to temper that and walk in the law of love. The reality is that if I claim to be a follower of Christ I ought to love others. My strategy is to be obedient to the Master, not win an argument. I admit that in the past, winning an argument has at times, been more important than love. I have made a choice to turn from that error and walk in love. Please accept it for what it is. I am only treating others as I’d like to be treated. I know that this forum is not and should not be about winning an argument. This is a place to discuss and disagree, in love.
David,
You said:
“I have noticed your change in strategy. You are trying to be very sweet and gentle in an attempt to show that you are real because of your love and that we are heretics because we continue to call error, error so that we look less loving. Well, that is a good ploy I guess, only that I have always loved you.”
You are spot on…
Thank you my brother!
It is a blessing to know that others recognize the wiles. May YHVH be blessed and praised! We will continue to lift high His Royal agenda!
In Yeshua’s love
David
Brother Scot, Thanks unto Abba for the things that you are able to make clear concerning the epistles of Shaul. We have a brother here in the Detroit area that doesn’t even want to see the things of Abba and the Sabbath. No matter what I say unto him he considers me a heretic. I have tried to get him to use a concordance to look up the simple 3 letter words that do not mean the same in our English as it was written in the Scriptures. We cannot even fellowship anymore. Besides prayer, what words could I say to him that would make him look at his point of view that he is ‘fully persuaded’ of? He says that what I have said to him makes him doubt his salvation, so he is through listening to what I have to say. He completely misuses Romans 14 to defend his position and says that I am judging him but I am not. I just do not want anyone to hear those awful words “Depart from Me, you that work iniquity”. He is so caught up in what is going on in the world in the government and can’t see the judgement of Abba coming because of the iniquity of this society with the killing of unborn, sun-god worship and promiscuity. Any words to help me? Love Mike
Shalom Scot & Susanne,
Met you both in Spokane. My name is Hope and I spoke with Susanne inside the house at the prophecy conference (Chavurit HaMasiach, forgive my spelling errors), my oldest boy has Autism (might help you remember who I am). Anywho, there is a high probability that we will be moving to Jacksonville, Fl. How far away are you guys from there? What do you know about it? We have 4 children, and I homeschool, I think the facility that my husband will/might be working at is west of Jacksonville (Flightstar is the aviation company). Any insight or whatever you got will be helpful. We love to garden…read, hang out as a family, camp, meet new people (especially like minded folk), find local foods, farmers markets, eggs.
I would sure appreciate your guys’ thoughts. Does Florida get alot of flooding? I am concerned about being at sea level. We’ve only been to Port St Lucie and Orlando, so it’s hot/humid/lots of bugs….? Is the beach nice? Thanks for your advice. Shalom, Reed and Hope Friese
I apologize for this being in the wrong place. Can someone please tell me how to post here or how to contact the administration of this website so that I ask to have a new thread started.
I basically am new to Torah and was wondering if anyone knew of any threads already on this website that discusses/refutes: the anitichrist being from the tribe of Dan.
I was told that there are several bible teachers who teach the following interpretation and I paraphrased what I was taught:
Take a look at Daniel 11:37, Genesis 49:16-17, Revelation 7:4-8.
In the Daniel scripture it says that he shall not regard the God of his fathers. That is a Jewish expression. But he shall honor the God of forces. He shall not desire women.
In the Genesis scripture Jacob is prophesying over his sons and in verse 16 he says that Dan shall judge his people. The antichrist is sent in judgement of the Jews. Dan shall be a serpent by the way and an adder in the path, etc.
In the Revelation scripture it says who makes up the 144,000 Jews, and the tribe of Dan is left out. So we can say that the antichrist is a Jew coming out of the tribe of Dan. It is also said that he comes out of Syria, and the tribe of Dan settled in this area.
Thanks and Shalom,
Michelle
scot, i am going to try to get you connected to church in the city in denver.
the website is churchinthecity.org has 2 jewish pastors and michael brown has been there and is long term friendship with the pastor michael walker. your message needs to permeate to this church.
please visit website.
Dear Scot,
Has Isaiah 19 already happened in the past or is it happening now? (I’m not a Bible scholar and know even less about history.) Thank you.
Your student, Lita
friese6 ;give me a call so we can discuss your move. Id love to help anyway I can.-Suzanne
jon; Will you email to discuss more about the Denver congregation. Were planning on going to Denver sometime soon. scot@profoundprophecy.com
Prominent rabbis from the Lithuanian ultra-Orthodox sector have offered their own curious interpretations for the upheaval that is spreading through the Middle East, stating that the events are a clear proof that a higher power is at work.
The cellular portal Haredim, which offered a collection of responses on the matter, quoted Rabbi Aharon Leib Steinman, the leader of the ultra-Orthodox Lithuanian sector in Bnei Brak, as blaming the instability in the region on contemptuous attitudes towards Torah study.
“Recently it appears that there is a powerful effort to destroy and agitate the world of the Torah, through various attempts to prosecute kollels and yeshiva students,†Steinman said. “When you try to agitate the world of the Torah, God agitates the world.â€
Steinman explained that the sages of the Talmud teach that there is a connection between Torah study and the existence of the world.
http://www.thejerusalemconnection.us/blog/2011/02/24/arab-unrest-signals-messiahs-coming.html
From now on on your DVDs why don’t you stop using Baal name for the MESSIAH Jesus in greek
means Zeus a Sun God and Christ comes from the Greek word Christos which the Greeks called
all their pagan Gods so when you say Jesus Christ you are calling him a pagan God.
Refer to ARAMAIC ENGLISH NEW TESTAMENT from NETZARI PRESS
(htto://www.aent.org)
Because most people don’t know…I’m sure you knew that. You should care more about them and less about yourself….grow up…Baal means lord or master and is defined by its context….which sacred name only fruitcakes ALWAYS LACK…disgusting and prideful…
Calvin, you said:
“Refer to ARAMAIC ENGLISH NEW TESTAMENT from NETZARI PRESS
(htto://www.aent.org)”
It sounds like you are saying those from AENT have all the way, all the truth, and all the life… Listen, many of us on here came to saving knowledge of the true Messiah under the name “Jesus Christ”. There is NOTHING wrong with that. By over-emphasizing the less weightier measures of the Torah, you and many from the extreme sacred names groups tend to come across as playing the role of the Holy Spirit… We need to be careful not to go to extremes. Believe me, I have done just that so I am not condemning you, but as a brother just warning you not to do what I did. Shalom brother.
Also,
everytime we say a name of a day and month we are using pagan names. The only time when ALL of paganism will end will be during the Millennial Reign of Messiah.
We cannot accomplish this on our own. YHWH said HE will take the names of the baals from our lips IN THAT DAY (future tense).
Hos 2:16 And it shall be at that day, saith YHWH, that thou shalt call me Ishi; and shalt call me no more Baali.
Hos 2:17 For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name.
Calvin, I have been a “Christian” for 28 yrs. but new to YHWH’s Torah (about 3 months). I appreciate the sensitivity of many on this forum because if they only use sacred names I would be lost! I am a baby in Torah and need milk right now. I am asking Abba to teach me and re-do my thinking so that I begin to speak what he is putting in my heart and that is taking time. Please try to consider us babies, we need to be fed so that we grow.
Inetta,
Welcome and blessings to you my Sister.
I would be glad to help you with any questions you may have. You can reach me at, drnowlin@bendbroadband.com.
I have been Torah observant for many years and may be able to answer many of your questions. There are also many good web sites with wonderful teachers that can be helpful. Our own Scot Dryer is one of them. Also many like Brad Scot, Rico Cortez, and others. It would be a blessing to help you any way I can.
David
Thanks David!
I have looked at several websites and have left dizzy, disappointed at some odd teachings and offended by some who expect everyone in Torah to be the same maturity. So I have found just a few that I believe Abba is using to help those like me. This is truly my favorite and most helpful. My hubby of 29 yrs. loves Abba but just not to the point that I am right now but he respects me observing Shabbat. I am still going on Sunday with him when he wants to go. I am praying for patience and wisdom…I can’t go back to untruths and I have removed myself from a ministry team there. I have to believe he will eventually come to the truth.
Last week I heard a woman mention “the trailer trash†people. Her comment made it clear that she had elevated herself in her own eyes and devalued “themâ€.
Calvin,
We all appreciate the zeal of brothers who are working toward restoring the truth of such things as the Set Apart Names of YHVH/Yeshua. However, when we allow our knowledge to override our hearts, the word for that is gnosticism.
This is a public forum. It is the purpose of this forum to reach any and all souls with the Truth! If we fail to speak to folk in a language they know and understand and of which they have been used to all their lives and taught that the names they are using are the correct ones, then we will be ignored, shunned, laughed at, and looked upon as a bunch of sectarian nuts.
We must allow the Ruach HaKadosh (for your benefit), Holy Spirit, (for those who are not as knowledgable as you seem to believe you are), to guide us in our methods of relating truth to others.
If you would bother to stick with us a while and see what we are all about instead of jumping to conclusions that we are less knowledgable than you, you may find that you, yourself may learn a thing or two. Or, maybe not. Fix your heart and then come back and talk to us.
David,
I am certain you are not aware of this but what Calvin’s post was all about WAS NOT honest zeal. He took the time to post negative things on Facebook as well. The sacred name only cults and HaShem\AENT Supremacy\Word of YHWH\”King James Only” guys hate what we do here…so do some Hebrew supremacy folks though they tend to be more mild.
Scot,
Shalom brother!
You are correct. I was not aware of the details. I mistook adversarial activity for zeal. Forgive me. I will pray for the guy anyway.
I got the fliers by the way! I handed the fliers out to folks in my group. About 30. I know Bonnie is doing the same. Blessings to you brother as you plan these events.
Can you tell me who will be at the Oregon gathering? I would love to see Jono Vander, Hollisa Alewine, and of course our dear brother Daniel.
Inetta,
I would count it an honor and a blessing to have discussions via email with you and your hubby. I believe I can be of some help to sort these things out. I am 64 years old, I served as a Wesleyan Methodist Minister for many years and have been a Messianic for many more. I have learned patience and perseverance. I am not trying to gain a following. I only want to be a servant to my brethren and my neighbor. I don’t expect others to take what I say at face value, but to check everything I say by the Word. Of course you understand that I am just making an offer to help and I am not trying to put myself above anyone else.
I am pleased that you are putting yourself under the headship of your husband as you should. I am only offering to provide some direction on questions you may have concerning Torah and many of its requirements that the Christian Churches frown upon such as keeping the Appointed Moedim (Feast) of YHVH.
May YHVH bless and keep you Sister.
In His Service
David
David,
I hear the sincerity from your heart and really appreciate it. Not to be dogmatic but there is one thing I am certain of from reading and praying is that the Two House belief in that the 10 tribes make up all “gentile” believers whether they know it or not is not accurate. I almost fell into that when I first came to following Abba in Torah and that is one of the reasons why this forum is my favorite. Scot’s teaching on it cleared me up along with Abba confirming it in His Word. I suspect you believe the same from the many posts of yours I have read. If that is the case I think it would be a good idea for me to refer my husband to you when he begins to honestly seek Abba regarding Torah. He is just not there yet.
Thanks again brother and may YHWH bless you as you continue to follow Him and bless others!
Scot was studying the book of Daniel chapter 12 got to the vs 11 & 12 seen the days subtracted the 2 and came up with 45 days inbetween the 2 I know this has to fall around a feast day whats your take on the 45 day period and meaning could use a little help.
There are a few options…some work and some don’t…
Aviv\Nisan 1 to Passover 2 or…. 1\1 to 2\15 <— don’t see that fitting in as things “wrap up” during fall and not winter…
-OR-
Elul 1 to Tishrei 15 or 6\1 to 7\15 <—— perhaps more likely
-OR-
perhaps it wraps up on Channukah <——- haven’t put much thought into this option
Someone else can chime in…
Mike, I can get you a copy of our Understanding Rev. Timeline if you would like.
We just made it avalible the other day. if you are interested you can email me at
imadevorah@gmail.com
Shalom Out, Deb
Hey, Scot, where is your eFoods Global button?
I am going to make a page for that since the sidebar is filling up…
Here is the link…
http://weirdbeard.myefoods.com/
I’ve been listening to teachings on your site. Thanks for all you do. I’m wondering about efoods. Several friends have been storing food. They are using the Mormon canning facility and Shelf Reliance–also a Mormon company. efoods is headquartered in Salt Lake City, so I’m guessing that it, too is Mormon. I’m just wondering about your take on all of us pouring finance into Mormon companies? I would love to fund the Body of Yeshua instead.
When Mr. Dyer was speaking in Abilene, Tx I purchase his DVDs including the Points of Contention series. The first DVD in this series seems to have a glitch. When Mr Dyer is speaking about the golden calf the DVD starts stopping and starting and finally quits all together. I have not yet watched all of the others in this set, but those that I have seem fine with the exception of the first one. How do I go about replacing the first DVD with one that works?? Thank you. Jeanne
Send email to info@profoundprophecy.com including this message with mailing addressand we will get that dvd to you
Scot, I just tried to e-mail you and got a responce of fail. ? Subject:
I tried pulling up the multi-media slide presentation and it said- not found. Where is it?
Shalom
My Mother and I watched AC attributes last Friday on dvd, she just called and asked again if I had the multi-media slideshow she could watch. Praise Abba!
Same with me, Duncan. The response I got was that the mailbox was full…so I used the info@profoundprophecy.com email instead. Shalom brother.
Scoot I need to ask you a couple of things, I had a computer crash and lost you number and emailaddress….also I have some one who woudl be good for the tour
The conference in Chicago was solid information from Abba. Today at sunset is Shabbot correct? Today’s phase is 97% illumination at 3:50p We are going to be able, Abba permitting, to meet with some that were at the Chicago meeting that sat right in front of us. Was the meeting recorded in audio format, so CDs or downloads of it can be made to share with others? The intimacy of this meeting compared with the Sukkot 6010 was far more family orientated. Love ya bro & sis.
I’m sorry, I wasn’t at the conference. Why is full moon a Sabbath?
Shalom Out, Deb
perhaps he is referring to the false teaching of “lunar sabbath”
I’m probably going to get railroaded for this comment, but I’ve never seen the huge discrepancy with the lunar sabbath idea. I don’t have enough information to be convinced either way I suppose. I keep the weekly 7 day sabbath Friday – Saturday night… however, the lunar Sabbath idea is intriguing to me nonetheless.
As I understand it, at it’s heart it’s still a 7 day Sabbath counting, however day one must start on a new moon. The end of the month may have a longer week depending on the next new moon (ie if 4 sabbaths are counted from the first new moon there may be a couple days until the next new moon which would prolong the last week)
so
week 1: New moon + 7 = Sabbath (moon is waxing)
week 2: First Sabbath + 7 = Second Sabbath (full moon every time… I think?)
week 3: Second Sabbath + 7 = Third Sabbath (moon is waning)
week 4 Third Sabbath + 7 = Final Sabbath of the month
(week 4 continues until new moon is sighted and you start over)
This seems to unhinge the gregorian days of the week, and I recall reading an article that claimed that the ancient Hebrews never had names for days in their weeks… they simply went with the first day the second day etc. If this is true then they would have always known where they were in relation to sabbaths due to the moons.
Dunno, stands to reason that if we use the moons for the moedim is it really so hard to imagine that Abba would also have us use them for the Sabbaths? Just my 2 cents. Still investigating the issue so any help would be, as always, greatly appreciated!
On the flipside I suppose you would be in violation of the 7 day sabbath because you’d have to “ignore” this instruction for the last week by working a couple extra days prior to the first sighting of the new moon that would thus technically make the first week longer than 7 days in between your resting periods.
Guess I answered my question!
It does mess with the 6 day work week at the end of the month. Another BIG problem for me is that I see weeks being fulfilled in different scales in the scriptures…weeks of days, weeks of years and weeks of land sabbaths. There are definitely weeks of land sabbaths. This is why I have been so quite on the blog lately, because I am working on a very extensive “proof” of this. These weeks of land sabbaths (49 year cycles) each begin with a Jubilee (which is also the first year of a land sabbath week) and end with the seventh land sabbath. These cycles occur in continuous, repeating, UNINTERUPTED cycles. It may be that our weeks of days are an earthly, human representation of another week in the heavens, just as the tabernacle, temple, ark, etc… were made in the pattern of the heavenly.
The weeks of land sabbaths (Jubilee cycles) follow a continuous, uninterrupted, 49 year pattern. The weeks of years also follow a continuous, uninterrupted, 7 year pattern, so it follows that our weeks of days also follow this continuous, uninterrupted pattern of SEVEN.
Think of the little Russian dolls that fit inside each other.
Yeah great point Greg. I really look forward to seeing your research at some point.
I’m wondering though if as the days are “shortened” as it says in the scriptures this could have something to do with the 28 day month being “off.” (I know generally this is read to mean that the time period of tribulation will be cut short not literally the hours in the days…) But could it be possible that even our planet’s orbit needs to be “restored” or “renewed” as well? Just a thought… or am I going way to far out here? I’m in the middle of work and haven’t really had time to think through and digest what I just suggested! Haha!
Here are the problems I see.
1. Sighting…it is the DEMAND of “sighting” and then “not seeing” that creates the problem.
2. The idea that all other time keeping fits in the “cosmic week” as opposed to having a definitive point of origin, namely “in the beginning.”
3. Shavuot is a “first” and a “fiftieth” representing the summation of 7 COMPLETE weeks + 1 day.
Shavuot IS NOT “the Feast of Sabbaths” and it IS NOT “the feast of days” it is The Feast of Weeks.
So, we are back to the question:
What determines a “week” and has the notion of “the week” always been or does it ALSO have a definitive point of origin.
Do we have ANY evidence of “weeks” in eternity past (loaded question)? No. The week is FIRST seen after the following and NOT before.
“in the beginning” YHWH created “the heavens” (including the luminaries) and “the earth” and it LATER became chaotic\void\formless…
So, before ANY MENTION of “the six days” and “the seventh” we have the heavens and earth ALREADY in existence. The MOON was NOT created on the fourth day.
The moon was created before the six days and before the appointments (poorly translated as “seasons” in Genesis 1:14)
Clearly when counting from Genesis 1 clause 1 “the seventh” is also an “eighth” from that “first” record of things created,counting six days of organization\work\reorganization (it became chaotic as a result of the fall) in between that first clause and the Sabbath (seventh).
“The moon was created before the six days and before the appointments (poorly translated as “seasons†in Genesis 1:14)”
The Hebrew text suggests something else. The word od – ayin-dalet – means “eternity”. The mem prefix means “out of” or “for the sake of”. Therefore moed – appointed time or meeting – means “out of eternity” or “for the sake of eternity”. This suggests that the moedim – the appointed times – pre-existed the Genesis account..
““in the beginning†YHWH created “the heavens†(including the luminaries) and “the earth†and it LATER became chaotic\void\formless…”
This sounds like what is commonly known as the “gap theory” – that is, that there was an indeterminate period of time between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. It is just that – a theory. We cannot prove it one way or the other. The very phrase “in the beginning” is not necessarily a direct translation from the Hebrew text anyway. Bereshiyt literally means, “In beginnings…” or “When began…” so a more literal reading would be, “When began creating Elohim the heavens and the earth and the earth was formless and lifeless and the Spirit of YHVH moved over the face of the waters and spoke Elohim, “Let light be”, and light was.”
“So, before ANY MENTION of “the six days†and “the seventh†we have the heavens and earth ALREADY in existence. The MOON was NOT created on the fourth day.”
Yes, on this we are agreed. As is commonly the case with Hebrew storytelling, the account is not necessarily given in chronological order. The most important things are told first. The account of the Sun, Moon and stars is not tied to the creation of light or the creation of the plants and trees because, in contrast to the pagan cosmologies (that Israel would have learned in Egypt) that have the creation being as a result of some cosmic conflict or act of procreation between the gods and where the sun and the moon are worshipped as gods, YHVH wanted to make it perfectly clear that those thing are not gods!. Life does not come from them – it comes from Him.
“Clearly when counting from Genesis 1 clause 1 “the seventh†is also an “eighth†from that “first†record of things created,counting six days of organization\work\reorganization (it became chaotic as a result of the fall) in between that first clause and the Sabbath (seventh).”
Nope. Not necessary. We’re not told what happened before Genesis 1:1 because we don’t need to know. For centuries the sages of Israel have considered why the scriptures begin with the second letter of the Hebrew alef-bet (beyt) rather than the first (aleph). They conclude that it is because aleph is silent and beyt is the first letter that is vocalised. Aleph represents YHVH and strength. Beyt represents a house. The story begins with YHVH building for himself a house and a people to live in it with him. Just as Aleph is silent, so the scriptures are silent about everything that happened before bereshiyt – those things are hidden from us because they do not concern us or our walk before YHVH.
Rodney, I think we have the Geocentric worldview shining through…
The drift from your principle contention to topics which ARE NOT pertinent to the argument do in fact on the surface appear credible…but only on the surface.
- We ARE told what happened in Genesis 1:1…it became chaotic, formless or misery.
- YHWH is NOT the author of this though it was the case in verse one.
- Also present in verse one is WATER…meaning that it was already in existence or “created in the beginning” whenever that was.
- On day three there are “seeds sprouting”
- On day four the lights in the sky are set in order (asah) for “warnings\signs\omens, appointments (note bogus translation of “seasons”), days and years. Time cannot be measured apart from motion so it stands to reason that this is when things were set in motion for the man’s benefit 2 days later…on the sixth day.
Why sages are still puzzled over why aleph is (silent) or skipped over is beyond me. It is clear that represents the unseen spirit and breath that is greater than NOT ONLY the “light of this world” (Y’shua and us) but also the heavenly lights that some men are inclined to worship.
We could not have a better picture.
One thing the scriptures ARE NOT silent about is the existence of the visible created water before any six days of work are mentioned.
The previous state of the earth WAS NOT chaotic\formless\void as YHWH is not the author of darkness or chaos.
Instead, the hayah is used to represent the change that took place. This was very likely do to the fall of haSatan and whatever corruption that would entail.
In other words,
“in the beginning YHWH created (bara)” and “it came to be” or “came to pass” that darkness prevailed on the face of the deep\waters which ALSO already existed.
hayah
1) to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out
a) (Qal)
1) —–
a) to happen, fall out, occur, take place, come about, come to pass
b) to come about, come to pass
2) to come into being, become
a) to arise, appear, come
b) to become
1) to become
2) to become like
3) to be instituted, be established
3) to be
a) to exist, be in existence
b) to abide, remain, continue (with word of place or time)
c) to stand, lie, be in, be at, be situated (with word of locality)
d) to accompany, be with
b) (Niphal)
1) to occur, come to pass, be done, be brought about
2) to be done, be finished, be gone
“God, YHWH is light and there is NO DARKNESS in Him”
His ETERNAL sons are son’s of the day which he calls light.
That darkness in verse 1 DID NOT come from YHWH and neither will there be any darkness in the future restoration on the eighth day. The eighth constitutes a “first” in cyclical thinking. New beginnings…
The silent aleph in aleph\beit is also a picture of Spirit (invisible Father)\ flesh (visible son).
Since we are on the topic:
The VISIBLE light is “under” the INVISIBLE word…just like “the beginning”…just like Y’shua was born of a woman as “the light of the world” though UNDER the invisible word\torah\unseen Spirit…
I’ve also heard the “in the beginning” could rightly be translated “in wisdom Elohim created the heavens and earth”.
Also… I agree the sun and the moon and earth were around for a long time before Abba turned his attention towards the earth.
What comes before one says something?… a thought or wisdom, intelligence. Before the words are spoken the ideas are conceived in the mind. Before Elohim “said” anything regarding the earth he had a plan, a thought, wisdom and intelligence… then he spoke, expressed his will, and made it happen.
Regarding the creative days it should say… “it came to be evening (after he was done work for the day), it came to be morning (when one prepares for the next day’s work) HIS day one.
I believe that in the Hebrew the word “the” was not there. In other words it should not say “the first day” as if this was some how the start of time. No this was simply ABBA’S day one with regard to his work organizing the earth (making it non-chaotic). If we are going to ADD a word to the text to make it more understandable, then the word added should be HIS.
The start of Genesis is describing Yah’s work week, NOT ours, although ours is set after the PATTERN of HIS. WE are governed by OUR sun, moon and stars for OUR times and seasons, but Abba is NOT governed by anything he created. HE has a day, evening, night and morning… but that does NOT mean that he is governed by ANY celestial bodies (especially things that he himself has created). It simply means that he works in a PATTERN and HE commanded US to follow HIS PATTERN.
DAY is a time GET BUSY, to work
EVENING is a time to stop working
NIGHT is a time to rest
MORNING is a time to prepare (or begin) for the day’s work/travel
Why is this on the contact page? We should make a new post.
Scot, you said… “That darkness in verse 1 DID NOT come from YHWH and neither will there be any darkness in the future restoration on the eighth day. The eighth constitutes a “first†in cyclical thinking. New beginnings…”
The eighth day is a new beginning… YES it is also the first day of a new week. The scripture does not say there will be no darkness on earth…
Rev 21:18 And the structure of its wall was jasper. And the city was clean gold, like clear glass.
Rev 21:19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with all kinds of precious stones: the first foundation jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald,
Rev 21:20 the fifth sardonyx, the sixth ruby, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst.
Rev 21:21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls – each one of the gates was a single pearl. And the street of the city was clean gold, like transparent glass.
Rev 21:22 And I saw no Dwelling Place in it, for יהוה Ěl Shaddai is its Dwelling Place, and the Lamb.
Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, nor of the moon, to shine in it, for the esteem of Elohim lightened it, and the Lamb is its lamp.
Rev 21:24 And the gentiles, of those who are saved, shall walk in its light,1 and the sovereigns of the earth bring their esteem into it. Footnote: 1See Isa. 60:3.
Rev 21:25 And its gates shall not be shut at all by day, for night shall not be there.
Rev 21:26 And they shall bring the esteem and the appreciation of the gentiles into it.
Rev 21:27 And there shall by no means enter into it whatever is unclean, neither anyone doing abomination and falsehood,1 but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life. Footnote: 1See 22:15, and 2 Thess. 2:11.
Did you notice?? it says THE CITY has no need of the sun or moon… THE CITY. There are still those outside the CITY for a time where there is weeping and darkness. There is no darkness INSIDE the city (new Jerusalem) because the esteem of Elohim is there and Y’shua is the lamp (a source of constant PURE light)!
Now here is an interesting video about how PURE light interacts with the 12 foundation stones.
Scot,
“in the beginning YHWH created (bara)†and “it came to be†or “came to pass†that darkness prevailed on the face of the deep\waters which ALSO already existed.”
I was going to comment on this, but I need to go back and check my Hebrew grammar for the verb forms of hayah used in verse 2 and verse 5. They’re different and something’s bugging me about it, but I need to check before shooting my mouth (or fingers) off.
Greg,
Verse 5 is interesting because it says, “va’yehi erev, va’yehi boqer, yom echad = and there came to be evening, and there came to be morning, one day”. Echad can mean one, first, unity or the indefinite article. In the context of the rest of the account (where ordinal numbers are used) I think this should properly be read as the ordinal 1st (which I would not have said before studying it out).
Subsequent verses also use ordinal numbers for second (yom sheniy), third, (yom sheyliyshiy) etc right through to the seventh day (yom shebiyiy). Funny, I always though YHVH named the seventh day “shabbat”, but the Hebrew text doesn’t say that. It literally says “And completed Elohiym in day 7th his work which made and he rested in day 7th – v’yishabat b’yom shebiyiy and blessed Elohiym day 7th and set apart it because rested from all His work which created Elohim made.”
I’m not sure what that has to do with our discussion but it’s amazing what you find out when you begin to read it in its original language (like just how difficult it is to translate from Hebrew to English without destroying one or the other).
OK Rodney, thanks… so “it came to be morning [His] first day”. If I am correct the word “the” is not in the Hebrew, so my point stands… IF we are to ADD a word to help us understand the verse I would suggest that HIS is a much better word to add than “the”.
My point is that I believe we already dwell in infinity. I do not agree with those who say, “in the eighth day we will dwell with Abba in infinity”. I believe that the times the bible talks about are ONLY the portion of infinity that we (Adam and his descendants) have dwelt in so far. As far as I can see time continues infinitely in BOTH directions. THIS galaxy had a beginning, and that may have been “the beginning” that Genesis 1 speaks of, but we know this is not the only galaxy. The better our telescopes get the more galaxies we can see in THIS universe. Is this the only universe? Of course we can speculate on these things infinitely (wouldn’t that be fun?).
My point is that there may be an infinite number of beginnings, and that THE “beginning” that Genesis 1:1 speaks of is one particular beginning which concerns us NOW.
To understand infinity one must understand the mathematics of fractals. Fractals are all around us in nearly everything the has been physically created. Understanding the physical will help us to understand the spiritual. I believe time is fractal and therefore infinite in both directions.
Really study this picture and you may see what I am getting at. One small piece of this picture is self similar to the big picture. It can be infinitely shrunk and infinitely expanded and it will always look the same. The time that has passed from Adam’s creation is just a speck of dust on the scales of time (this is what I believe anyway).
See picture here…
Hi Debra,
If you do a word study of Rosh Chodesh you will find that it was observed as a Shabbat would be observed. No where does it identify Rosh Chodesh as a Shabbat however.
Texts such as Amos 8: 4-5 gives hints, “Listen, you who swallow the needy and destroy the poor of the land! You say, ‘When will Rosh Chodesh be over, so we can market our grain? and Shabbat, so we can sell wheat?”
We see a distinction made between Shabbat and Rosh Chodesh, however, they are observed in the same way.
Blessings!
Wow, OK, That makes sense. More reading for my list. Thanks
S.O.,Deb
Praise Abba…as we all learn about this mystery together…you are right David.
All throughout scripture we have these categories of days:
New Moon, Sabbath, work days, feasts…
Scott said bashar al-assad would be the antichrist.Maybe he will be,but it looks like he has all of syria rising up against him
He already is. So? If you put aside the “left behind” book for a moment, you would find out that in scripture many hate the antichrist and there’s always some major conflict and bad news around him.
Exactly! It is time to forsake all the unbelievable “left-behind” nonsense and fairy-tales about “man of peace” who will be worshiped and loved by every single human being in the world (except children of Light). The picture which the Scriptures give about AM is realistic and connected to real life and not to such fairy tales.
Yes, many will worship AM, but according to the Scriptures AM is the man of war and conflicts.
Many who question Bashar Al-Assad or any other AM canditate because they look too “weak” at the moment to be worshiped by the “whole world” in the future doesn’t understand that the dragon who will give AM his final full power and authority (Rev. 12) has not been cast out from heaven yet. When that happens all hell on earth will break loose and many will say who dare to fight against him as the Revelation tells!
For example Al-Assad may look too “weak” now, but if he is the man of sin he WILL have enormous power and authority from the dragon (HaSatan himself) in the future. Moreover, if he is the man he will conquer Jerusalem and because of it many of his haters will naturally love him.
“Looking too weak at the moment” -statement just doesn’t work.
“Scott said bashar al-assad would be the antichrist.Maybe he will be,but it looks like he has all of syria rising up against him”
And…? How does this assumption qualify or disqualify Assad from consideration? Find ANY scripture saying AC’s home nation was always at peace with AC.
He slays his own people…it has to happen. Besides, who cares what I say?
Larry, I was thinking the other day, about Damascus becoming a runious heap. The concept of implosion crosses my mind. We have been assuming an attack from outside. How about total anarchy. Civil war has been known to be very hard on cities :0) He could rise from the ashes politicaly speaking, And still have enough clout to head the new califate organization ( what ever it turns out to be called)
S.O.,Deb
Calafate ;0o
caliphate
I believe the verses are clear, Damascus will cease from being a city, and shall become a ruinous heap, a pile of ruins/rubbish, physically (look at ww2 pictures, especially Hiroshima and Nagasaki)… this after the political, social turmoil that we’re seeing right now. What we will see is Assad increasing in power (NOT rising, because he’s already been in power for many years).