09 February 2012Written by Rodney (Editor)14 Comments
Comments
April09-02-2012, 17:51
Woooo… this IS an amazing video. I’d say that I loved it, but in fact, it loved me by giving to me! What a gift! Thank you, Rodney.
When the teacher of the video spoke of anger he said that everything is from God. But I do not agree with this. Evil is not from God. God did not create evil. “Let no one say when he is tempted, ‘I am tempted by God’; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.” (James 1:13)
In the manner of which he spoke of anger I believe he was speaking of frustration over inconveniences in life; not the same thing.
For instance, taking away our freedom to choose is not from God. Being cut off in traffic is a frustration from people’s choices, not God’s choice to cut us off. One can be angry momentarily or one can be shocked and scared momentarily.
There are many other things that happen in life that do not come from God. In a relationship, if we were to paint someone into a picture which does not reflect truth, this is not from God; it cripples the relationship. For what fellowship has righteousness with unrighteousness or lawlessness? Good question from Paul in 2Cor 6:14.
God has been angry; therefore, anger is not the omission of looking at God as the teacher stated in this video. We look to God and judge ourselves; He is our “plumb-line.”
Let’s take a look at Cain:
“But He (God) did not respect Cain and his offering. And Cain was very angry, and his countenance fell. So the Lord said to Cain, ‘Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.” (Gen 4:5-7)
“Be angry, and do not sin. Meditate within your heart on your bed, and be still. Selah.”
(Psalm 4:4) Good advice.
“For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.” (James 2:13)
I don’t see that becoming like one another is the goal as this teacher was leading in his discussion. I believe that we should become like our Savior who has created us all so vastly different. “Therefore be imitators of God as dear children.” (Eph 5:1) I believe there is plenty of room to be uniquely us and enough bonding in Him to keep us together.
I understand that we are exhorted to imitate others but it all leads us back to God because their example ought to be of God. “Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. He who does good is of God…” (3John 1:11)
“Who is a God like You, pardoning iniquity and passing over the transgression of the remnant of His heritage? He does not retain His anger forever because He delights in mercy. He will again have compassion on us, and will subdue our iniquities. You will cast all our sins into the depths of the sea. You will give truth to Jacob and mercy to Abraham, which You have sworn to our fathers from days of old.” (Micah 7:18-20)
It is amazing to me what God has revealed to us outside of the Hebrew language. I look forward to continue to learn the truth. I see that the Hebrew language reveals truth and has a beauty all its own.
In Zephaniah 3:9, it is written: “For then I will restore to the peoples a pure language that they all may call on the name of the Lord to serve Him with ONE ACCORD.”
I believe that “pure language” is speaking the truth. I see that the Hebrew language is being restored and it could be that this is what is spoken of by the Prophet Zephaniah.
I would like to also take a look at what happened in the book of Acts.
“When the Day of Pentecost had fully come they were all with ONE ACCORD in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. And they were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.” (Acts 2:1-4)
“And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together and was confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language. Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, ‘Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? And how is it that we hear each in our own language in which we were born?’” (Acts 2:6-8)
“…we hear them speaking in our own tongues and the wonderful works of God.” (Acts 2:11)
Sounds like: “to serve Him with ONE ACCORD” in Zephaniah 3:9.
I believe that there is a progression of this in God’s people today and the Hebrew language seems to be bonding many, and this bond, I believe, is God’s plan in the book of Ezekiel with the two sticks becoming one in God’s hand and progressing to the millennial kingdom.
Seeking first the kingdom of God and His righteousness…
I have not seen before what you have sown here so thank you for bringing it up. It is worth discussing.
I am hoping that Rodney may be able to shed some light on this also.
This is what I read in my Bible:
“That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting that there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other; I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I the Lord, do all these things.” (Isaiah 45:5-7)
“In the beginning God created…” (Gen 1:1a)
“Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good…” (Gen 1:31)
I see no evil here.
It is after this that we see evil appear. It comes about in doing evil such as disobeying.
Evil: morally reprehensible : sinful, wicked : arising from actual or imputed bad character or conduct
I see God taking responsibility for his creation throughout the whole Bible; things that bring glory to Him He supports. People’s selfish ambition gets no support and is destroyed.
I believe God’s judgment is righteous. “Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her.” (Rev 18:6)
I believe that God uses the calamity or evil that people cause against the ones who stir it up.
I see that we reap what we sow. “They sow the wind, and reap the whirlwind.” (Hosea 8:7)
“A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things.” (Matt 12:35)
“The eyes of the Lord preserve knowledge but He overthrows the words of the faithless.” (Prov 22:12)
God is Light and in Him is no darkness at all (See 1John 1:5)
Yeshua is the Root (Rev 5:5) and the vine (John 5:15). We are grafted in and if the root is holy, so are the branches (Rom 11:15) because we became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree (Rom 11:17). We are clean because of the word which Yeshua has spoken to us (John 15:3). No evil going on here. I see that God judging evil is a good thing so we can all get back to righteousness and being holy.
This is what I see… God does not do evil (James 1:13), why in the world would He create it? I don’t think He did; if He did this would make Him an evildoer: one who does evil.
I am always willing to learn the truth when the light dawns on me. So far what you have written does not make sense to me.
Ooops, I see that I have another typo. At the top of my reply to Vic I wrote, “I have not seen before what you have sown here so thank you for bringing it up.”
It should read, “I have not seen before what you have SHOWN here so thank you for bringing it up.”
April, the first time we see the Hebrew word ra appear is in Gen 2:9 ESV – And out of the ground the LORD God made to spring up every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was in the midst of the garden, and the tree (v’etz) of the knowledge (ha-da-yat) of good (tov) and evil (va’ra).
We do not translate this as “the tree of good and calamity”, do we? (Principle of First Mention applies). We see here ra contrasted with tov and this is by far its most common (but by no means only) use in the Tanakh.
Yes, ra has a whole range of meaning, almost none of which fit our western, Christian idea of “evil”.
So, let me ask you a question. Would God allow anything in His creation that does not, ultimately, serve to bring about His purpose?
Is there anything in the known universe that God did not create, other than perhaps time and God himself?
Did God created ha-satan (the adversary)? Did he create him intrinsically “evil”, or with the potential to choose either “evil” or “good”?
When God created Adam and Chavvah, where they created “evil” or with the potential to choose either “evil” or “good”?
It might be worthwhile for you to do some study into the yetzer ha’ra and yetzer ha’tov the “evil inclination” and the “good inclination”. That might give you a better idea of the Hebrew concept of ra and how different it is from our cultural/religious view.
I also highly recommend the article on ra in the Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (TWOT) ref. 2191 (for those that have access to it).
Thank you, Rodney for responding to me.
You wrote:
“April, the first time we see the Hebrew word ra appear is in Gen 2:9 ESV – And out of the ground the LORD God made to spring up every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was in the midst of the garden, and the tree (v’etz) of the knowledge (ha-da-yat) of good (tov) and evil (va’ra).”
My response:
“Then God said, ‘Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth’; and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.” (Gen 1:11-12)
No evil here.
When we get to Gen 2:9, I read, “And out of the ground the Lord God made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight and good for food.”
I see here that this is what God has created back in Gen 1:11-12 and it was good, there was no evil.
Continuing reading Gen 2:9, I read, “The tree of life was also in the midst of the garden…”
“Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father…” (James 1:17)
Continuing reading Gen 2:9, I read, “and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.”
God does not claim to have created this “tree of the knowledge of good and evil.” Moreover, I do not believe God would mix good and evil; He is not into such things, quite the contrary.
“You shall keep My statutes. You shall not let your livestock breed with another kind. You shall not sow your field with mixed seed. Nor shall a garment of mixed linen and wool come upon you.” (Lev 19:19)
“You shall not sow your vineyard with different kinds of seed, lest the yield of the seed which you have sown and the fruit of your vineyard be defiled.” (Deut 22:9)
“He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.” (Matt 13:37)
“The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. The enemy who sowed them is the devil…” (Matt 13:38-39a)
Yeshua said, “I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.” (John 17:15)
Rodney wrote:
“Yes, ra has a whole range of meaning, almost none of which fit our western, Christian idea of “evil”.”
My response:
Your words do not explain evil. I have written above the English meaning of Evil: morally reprehensible : sinful, wicked : arising from actual or imputed bad character or conduct
Rodney wrote:
“So, let me ask you a question. Would God allow anything in His creation that does not, ultimately, serve to bring about His purpose?”
My response:
God allows us to choose against His will.
“But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.”
But ultimately, God will bring about His purpose, whatever our choice is. We can be good examples or bad examples. Yeshua said that God is good, “No one is good but One, that is, God…” (See Matt 19:17).
Rodney wrote:
“Is there anything in the known universe that God did not create, other than perhaps time and God himself?”
My response:
God did not create evil; He did not create the choices of His creation.
Rodney wrote:
“Did God created ha-satan (the adversary)? Did he create him intrinsically “evil”, or with the potential to choose either “evil” or “good”?
“When God created Adam and Chavvah, where they created “evil” or with the potential to choose either “evil” or “good”?”
My response:
Again, God did not create the choices of His creation. We are free to choose. Sin does not have dominion over us.
James, who spoke among the apostles and elders (Acts 15:6) to come up with a viable solution to a matter in Acts 15, who I believe wrote the book of James, also wrote that God does not tempt anyone with evil (See James 1:13). This is James’ concept and I trust his writing.
So then, are you implying that God created evil to tempt or test us?
My answer is no, He did not; this is where we disagree.
God is not a mix of good and evil.
“God does not claim to have created this “tree of the knowledge of good and evil.”
So, when did this tree get into the garden and how did it get there? God planted the garden. Who else would have planted it?
Was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil inherently evil? Did God not see all that He had made and proclaim it very good?
I contend that it was necessary for the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil to be in the garden. Why? So Adam and Chavvah would have to choose to obey God over and above their own desires.
No T.O.K.O.G.A.E., no choice to be made. In order to be come fully human (rather than an automaton), Adam and Chavvah had to be free to choose, which means there had to be a choice to be made.
Processing this…hmm??? In order to be free to choose don’t you have to have something to make a choice about? In this case, the choice is to obey or not to obey. T.O.K.O.G.A.E (thks for the short-hand Rodney had the same elements as every other tree in that “every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight and good for food” Gen. 2:9, with an added element, “And the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise” Gen 3:6. So here lies the free to choose, free to obey or not to obey. I think this tree offered the choice that we were created with.
Exactly right, Inetta. I do not believe that the fruit of the tree had any “magical” or “mystical” qualities or that it was necessarily fundamentally different from any other tree that God planted in the garden.
Adam was given instructions to guard and tend/serve the garden – that includes everything in it including this particular tree. The only thing that set this one tree apart from all the other trees was God’s specific instruction not to eat the fruit. I believe He could have chosen any tree, but He probably chose this one tor the specific qualities you mentioned. Why? To see if Adam and Chavvah would trust Him or trust in their own desire to provide for their own needs.
As we said, the choice was there to be made. Up to this point they knew only tov – good, but in the act of disobedience, they now also knew ra – that which is not tov.
1Jo 2:15-17 KJV – “[15] Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. [16] For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh (good for food), and the lust of the eyes (pleasant to the eyes), and the pride of life (desirable to make one wise), is not of the Father, but is of the world. [17] And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.”
Do you see the connection? Interestingly, this is similar to what is dealt with in Lev 11 through 19 (what is known in some Rabbinic circles as “the heart of the Torah”). It deals with the 3 great appetites of man – our ego, what we eat and who/what we do/don’t have sex with. None of that would have been necessary in the Torah if it wasn’t for this episode in the garden.
Rodney,
Is it not possible that “an enemy planted the seed of the Tree of the Knowledge of good and evil?” As in the parable of the Tares!
We are told that all of the trees in the Earth had not sprouted because YHVH had not yet caused them to sprout. Nothing was said about who put the seed there to begin with. This one seed could have been planted by the adversary. Of course it would have been with the full knowledge and allowance of YHVH in order to fulfill HIs Purpose because of the necessity of free will for man. YHVH caused them to sprout and grow but we are not told that He planted that one seed.
David, see my reply to Inetta (above). The adversary cannot create anything out of nothing – that is reserved for YHVH. It is my belief that there is nothing created that was not created by YHVH, and that everything created serves His purposes. Even the adversary.
He is not an equal to YHVH – he was created to serve YHVH; initially for good, but then he chose to oppose. Even in his opposition, he (either willingly or unwittingly) serves YHVH’s purpose and can do nothing save that which he is permitted to do (witness: Job).
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Comments
Woooo… this IS an amazing video. I’d say that I loved it, but in fact, it loved me by giving to me! What a gift! Thank you, Rodney.
When the teacher of the video spoke of anger he said that everything is from God. But I do not agree with this. Evil is not from God. God did not create evil. “Let no one say when he is tempted, ‘I am tempted by God’; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.” (James 1:13)
In the manner of which he spoke of anger I believe he was speaking of frustration over inconveniences in life; not the same thing.
For instance, taking away our freedom to choose is not from God. Being cut off in traffic is a frustration from people’s choices, not God’s choice to cut us off. One can be angry momentarily or one can be shocked and scared momentarily.
There are many other things that happen in life that do not come from God. In a relationship, if we were to paint someone into a picture which does not reflect truth, this is not from God; it cripples the relationship. For what fellowship has righteousness with unrighteousness or lawlessness? Good question from Paul in 2Cor 6:14.
God has been angry; therefore, anger is not the omission of looking at God as the teacher stated in this video. We look to God and judge ourselves; He is our “plumb-line.”
Let’s take a look at Cain:
“But He (God) did not respect Cain and his offering. And Cain was very angry, and his countenance fell. So the Lord said to Cain, ‘Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.” (Gen 4:5-7)
“Be angry, and do not sin. Meditate within your heart on your bed, and be still. Selah.”
(Psalm 4:4) Good advice.
“For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.” (James 2:13)
I don’t see that becoming like one another is the goal as this teacher was leading in his discussion. I believe that we should become like our Savior who has created us all so vastly different. “Therefore be imitators of God as dear children.” (Eph 5:1) I believe there is plenty of room to be uniquely us and enough bonding in Him to keep us together.
I understand that we are exhorted to imitate others but it all leads us back to God because their example ought to be of God. “Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. He who does good is of God…” (3John 1:11)
“Who is a God like You, pardoning iniquity and passing over the transgression of the remnant of His heritage? He does not retain His anger forever because He delights in mercy. He will again have compassion on us, and will subdue our iniquities. You will cast all our sins into the depths of the sea. You will give truth to Jacob and mercy to Abraham, which You have sworn to our fathers from days of old.” (Micah 7:18-20)
It is amazing to me what God has revealed to us outside of the Hebrew language. I look forward to continue to learn the truth. I see that the Hebrew language reveals truth and has a beauty all its own.
In Zephaniah 3:9, it is written: “For then I will restore to the peoples a pure language that they all may call on the name of the Lord to serve Him with ONE ACCORD.”
I believe that “pure language” is speaking the truth. I see that the Hebrew language is being restored and it could be that this is what is spoken of by the Prophet Zephaniah.
I would like to also take a look at what happened in the book of Acts.
“When the Day of Pentecost had fully come they were all with ONE ACCORD in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. And they were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.” (Acts 2:1-4)
“And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together and was confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language. Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, ‘Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? And how is it that we hear each in our own language in which we were born?’” (Acts 2:6-8)
“…we hear them speaking in our own tongues and the wonderful works of God.” (Acts 2:11)
Sounds like: “to serve Him with ONE ACCORD” in Zephaniah 3:9.
I believe that there is a progression of this in God’s people today and the Hebrew language seems to be bonding many, and this bond, I believe, is God’s plan in the book of Ezekiel with the two sticks becoming one in God’s hand and progressing to the millennial kingdom.
Seeking first the kingdom of God and His righteousness…
April,
Respectfully I just want to address one point you brought up and to remind you what’s written in the word of God concerning that particular statement.
You said, “God did not create evil.”
His word states otherwise:
“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create *evil: I the LORD do all these [things].” (Isaiah 45:7, KJV)
*(H7451) “ra’ ”
Root Word (Etymology): from H7489
Outline of Biblical Usage:
noun masculine
2) evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity
a) evil, distress, adversity
b) evil, injury, wrong
c) evil (ethical)
noun feminine
3) evil, misery, distress, injury
a) evil, misery, distress
b) evil, injury, wrong
c) evil (ethical)
Thank you, Vic for responding to me.
I have not seen before what you have sown here so thank you for bringing it up. It is worth discussing.
I am hoping that Rodney may be able to shed some light on this also.
This is what I read in my Bible:
“That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting that there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other; I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I the Lord, do all these things.” (Isaiah 45:5-7)
“In the beginning God created…” (Gen 1:1a)
“Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good…” (Gen 1:31)
I see no evil here.
It is after this that we see evil appear. It comes about in doing evil such as disobeying.
Evil: morally reprehensible : sinful, wicked : arising from actual or imputed bad character or conduct
I see God taking responsibility for his creation throughout the whole Bible; things that bring glory to Him He supports. People’s selfish ambition gets no support and is destroyed.
I believe God’s judgment is righteous. “Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her.” (Rev 18:6)
I believe that God uses the calamity or evil that people cause against the ones who stir it up.
I see that we reap what we sow. “They sow the wind, and reap the whirlwind.” (Hosea 8:7)
“A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things.” (Matt 12:35)
“The eyes of the Lord preserve knowledge but He overthrows the words of the faithless.” (Prov 22:12)
God is Light and in Him is no darkness at all (See 1John 1:5)
Yeshua is the Root (Rev 5:5) and the vine (John 5:15). We are grafted in and if the root is holy, so are the branches (Rom 11:15) because we became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree (Rom 11:17). We are clean because of the word which Yeshua has spoken to us (John 15:3). No evil going on here. I see that God judging evil is a good thing so we can all get back to righteousness and being holy.
This is what I see… God does not do evil (James 1:13), why in the world would He create it? I don’t think He did; if He did this would make Him an evildoer: one who does evil.
I am always willing to learn the truth when the light dawns on me. So far what you have written does not make sense to me.
Again, thank you, Vic for responding.
“I make peace and create calamity; I the Lord, do all these things”
Yes, I also tend to agree with this translation.
Ooops, I see that I have another typo. At the top of my reply to Vic I wrote, “I have not seen before what you have sown here so thank you for bringing it up.”
It should read, “I have not seen before what you have SHOWN here so thank you for bringing it up.”
My apologies
April, the first time we see the Hebrew word ra appear is in Gen 2:9 ESV – And out of the ground the LORD God made to spring up every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was in the midst of the garden, and the tree (v’etz) of the knowledge (ha-da-yat) of good (tov) and evil (va’ra).
We do not translate this as “the tree of good and calamity”, do we? (Principle of First Mention applies). We see here ra contrasted with tov and this is by far its most common (but by no means only) use in the Tanakh.
Yes, ra has a whole range of meaning, almost none of which fit our western, Christian idea of “evil”.
So, let me ask you a question. Would God allow anything in His creation that does not, ultimately, serve to bring about His purpose?
Is there anything in the known universe that God did not create, other than perhaps time and God himself?
Did God created ha-satan (the adversary)? Did he create him intrinsically “evil”, or with the potential to choose either “evil” or “good”?
When God created Adam and Chavvah, where they created “evil” or with the potential to choose either “evil” or “good”?
It might be worthwhile for you to do some study into the yetzer ha’ra and yetzer ha’tov the “evil inclination” and the “good inclination”. That might give you a better idea of the Hebrew concept of ra and how different it is from our cultural/religious view.
I also highly recommend the article on ra in the Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (TWOT) ref. 2191 (for those that have access to it).
Thank you, Rodney for responding to me.
You wrote:
“April, the first time we see the Hebrew word ra appear is in Gen 2:9 ESV – And out of the ground the LORD God made to spring up every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was in the midst of the garden, and the tree (v’etz) of the knowledge (ha-da-yat) of good (tov) and evil (va’ra).”
My response:
“Then God said, ‘Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth’; and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.” (Gen 1:11-12)
No evil here.
When we get to Gen 2:9, I read, “And out of the ground the Lord God made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight and good for food.”
I see here that this is what God has created back in Gen 1:11-12 and it was good, there was no evil.
Continuing reading Gen 2:9, I read, “The tree of life was also in the midst of the garden…”
“Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father…” (James 1:17)
Continuing reading Gen 2:9, I read, “and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.”
God does not claim to have created this “tree of the knowledge of good and evil.” Moreover, I do not believe God would mix good and evil; He is not into such things, quite the contrary.
“You shall keep My statutes. You shall not let your livestock breed with another kind. You shall not sow your field with mixed seed. Nor shall a garment of mixed linen and wool come upon you.” (Lev 19:19)
“You shall not sow your vineyard with different kinds of seed, lest the yield of the seed which you have sown and the fruit of your vineyard be defiled.” (Deut 22:9)
“He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.” (Matt 13:37)
“The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. The enemy who sowed them is the devil…” (Matt 13:38-39a)
Yeshua said, “I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.” (John 17:15)
Rodney wrote:
“Yes, ra has a whole range of meaning, almost none of which fit our western, Christian idea of “evil”.”
My response:
Your words do not explain evil. I have written above the English meaning of Evil: morally reprehensible : sinful, wicked : arising from actual or imputed bad character or conduct
Rodney wrote:
“So, let me ask you a question. Would God allow anything in His creation that does not, ultimately, serve to bring about His purpose?”
My response:
God allows us to choose against His will.
“But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.”
But ultimately, God will bring about His purpose, whatever our choice is. We can be good examples or bad examples. Yeshua said that God is good, “No one is good but One, that is, God…” (See Matt 19:17).
Rodney wrote:
“Is there anything in the known universe that God did not create, other than perhaps time and God himself?”
My response:
God did not create evil; He did not create the choices of His creation.
Rodney wrote:
“Did God created ha-satan (the adversary)? Did he create him intrinsically “evil”, or with the potential to choose either “evil” or “good”?
“When God created Adam and Chavvah, where they created “evil” or with the potential to choose either “evil” or “good”?”
My response:
Again, God did not create the choices of His creation. We are free to choose. Sin does not have dominion over us.
James, who spoke among the apostles and elders (Acts 15:6) to come up with a viable solution to a matter in Acts 15, who I believe wrote the book of James, also wrote that God does not tempt anyone with evil (See James 1:13). This is James’ concept and I trust his writing.
So then, are you implying that God created evil to tempt or test us?
My answer is no, He did not; this is where we disagree.
God is not a mix of good and evil.
Respectfully…
“God does not claim to have created this “tree of the knowledge of good and evil.”
So, when did this tree get into the garden and how did it get there? God planted the garden. Who else would have planted it?
Was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil inherently evil? Did God not see all that He had made and proclaim it very good?
I contend that it was necessary for the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil to be in the garden. Why? So Adam and Chavvah would have to choose to obey God over and above their own desires.
No T.O.K.O.G.A.E., no choice to be made. In order to be come fully human (rather than an automaton), Adam and Chavvah had to be free to choose, which means there had to be a choice to be made.
To obey or not to obey, that is the question.
Processing this…hmm??? In order to be free to choose don’t you have to have something to make a choice about? In this case, the choice is to obey or not to obey. T.O.K.O.G.A.E (thks for the short-hand Rodney
had the same elements as every other tree in that “every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight and good for food” Gen. 2:9, with an added element, “And the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise” Gen 3:6. So here lies the free to choose, free to obey or not to obey. I think this tree offered the choice that we were created with.
Exactly right, Inetta. I do not believe that the fruit of the tree had any “magical” or “mystical” qualities or that it was necessarily fundamentally different from any other tree that God planted in the garden.
Adam was given instructions to guard and tend/serve the garden – that includes everything in it including this particular tree. The only thing that set this one tree apart from all the other trees was God’s specific instruction not to eat the fruit. I believe He could have chosen any tree, but He probably chose this one tor the specific qualities you mentioned. Why? To see if Adam and Chavvah would trust Him or trust in their own desire to provide for their own needs.
As we said, the choice was there to be made. Up to this point they knew only tov – good, but in the act of disobedience, they now also knew ra – that which is not tov.
1Jo 2:15-17 KJV – “[15] Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. [16] For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh (good for food), and the lust of the eyes (pleasant to the eyes), and the pride of life (desirable to make one wise), is not of the Father, but is of the world. [17] And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.”
Do you see the connection? Interestingly, this is similar to what is dealt with in Lev 11 through 19 (what is known in some Rabbinic circles as “the heart of the Torah”). It deals with the 3 great appetites of man – our ego, what we eat and who/what we do/don’t have sex with. None of that would have been necessary in the Torah if it wasn’t for this episode in the garden.
Rodney,
Is it not possible that “an enemy planted the seed of the Tree of the Knowledge of good and evil?” As in the parable of the Tares!
We are told that all of the trees in the Earth had not sprouted because YHVH had not yet caused them to sprout. Nothing was said about who put the seed there to begin with. This one seed could have been planted by the adversary. Of course it would have been with the full knowledge and allowance of YHVH in order to fulfill HIs Purpose because of the necessity of free will for man. YHVH caused them to sprout and grow but we are not told that He planted that one seed.
David, see my reply to Inetta (above). The adversary cannot create anything out of nothing – that is reserved for YHVH. It is my belief that there is nothing created that was not created by YHVH, and that everything created serves His purposes. Even the adversary.
He is not an equal to YHVH – he was created to serve YHVH; initially for good, but then he chose to oppose. Even in his opposition, he (either willingly or unwittingly) serves YHVH’s purpose and can do nothing save that which he is permitted to do (witness: Job).