As you may or may not be aware, there is no punctuation (at least, not like we have in English) in biblical Greek or biblical Hebrew. Both languages rely on context to get the meaning across. This can be the cause of some ambiguity and confusion when we translate from those languages into English. Translators must make informed decisions as to how to punctuate the sentence in order for it to make sense and, often enough, there can be more than one possible reading. How then do they make their decision? They are, after all, only human. Is is possible then that they allow their own beliefs and doctrines to influence how they translate the text? Some would say, “yes”.
This article demonstrates just such a case. When you’re reading this, if you disagree with it, ask yourself, “why?” Is it because of what you’ve been taught,according to the traditions of men, or because of your own study of the text (in its original language and context)? Or for some other reason (e.g. “I just don’t like what that implies” or “it seems to contradict other scriptures”, if in fact it does). Be honest with yourself.
It would be fun to see if we can think of other passages where this may also apply; where the shifting of a comma, the addition of parentheses or some other change to the punctuation would significantly change the reading.
I’ll give you one example before we get to the article. An English teacher wrote the following sentence on the blackboard (these days it’s probably a whiteboard) and asked the students to punctuate it:
“A woman without her man is nothing”.
The boys punctuated it thus: “A woman, without her man, is nothing”.
Without exception, though, the girls punctuated it like this: “A woman; without her, man is nothing”.
Now for the article…
Tuesday, February 21st, 2012 | Author: Skip Moen
And Jesus said to him, “Truly I say to you, Today you will be with Me in Paradise.” Luke 23:43 J. Green translation
Today – When do we get to heaven? While the question certainly isn’t on the top shelf from a biblical point of view, evangelical Christianity seems to suggest that the answer to this question is of great importance. The long-held tradition that we arrive at the pearly gates the very instant our physical bodies cease functioning in this world is a sacred cow for most believers. Therefore, when we notice that first century Jewish thinking considers death as a long sleep before Judgment Day, we point to a verse like this one and claim that out loved ones aren’t sleeping in the grave. They are already with the Lord waiting our arrival or His return.
But what happened if we move the comma?
Neither Greek nor Hebrew have punctuation. Added commas help English readers, but where to put the comma is the decision of the translator, not the reflection of the text. What happens to our sacred cow belief if the comma is moved like this: “Truly I say to you today, you will be with Me is Paradise.” Ah, yes, things change, don’t they?
What justification do we have for suggesting that the comma might be in the wrong place? After all, when Yeshua speaks an opening line like “Truly I say to you,” the comma usually follows immediately. To justify moving it we need to look at both the Greek text and the probably Hebrew statement.
In the Greek text, the literal translation reads, “Amen I say to you today with me you will be in Paradise.” In Greek the non-existent comma could be added in either position. The statement to the crucified man makes just as much contextual sense either way. In Hebrew, things are slightly different. In the Hebrew Delitzsch Gospels, the text reads “and speaking Yeshua to him Amen Amen say I to you the day will be with me in Gan-Eden.” You’ll notice that the word for today includes the definite article (ha-yom), rendered “this day.” The double amen amen is the signal that something very significant follows. But there is still no compelling reason to conclude that Yeshua didn’t say, “I say to you this day,” rather than “I say to you, this day.” In other words, the only reason to add the comma between “you” and “this day” is a prior theological belief that Paradise is the immediate consequence of death. But that prior theological belief isn’t in the text and it doesn’t seem to be a part of the first century Jewish understanding of heaven. If we read the verse in its first century Jewish context, we can rightly conclude that Yeshua would have intended the man would sleep until the day of Judgment, just like all other men.
There is just one more thing. The Hebrew ha-yom could also be rendered “that day.” If this is the correct translation, then Yeshua assures him that on that day, he will enter Gan-Eden. He will not be cut off. And this, of course, fits the Jewish context.
What can we conclude? It’s simple. Commas do not make doctrines. We must be far more careful to read the text in its own context rather than adding ours. Does this make you wonder how many of your theological beliefs depend on punctuation?
Comments
Yet, just because the Tanakh (and Judaism) is kind of silent about what happens between death and resurrection, does that mean there’s nothing there? Or maybe, there is, but because God knows our hearts, he considered it better for us not to know much? Thinking out of the box (whether Judaism’s, Christianity’s, etc) here. What happens to our souls/spirits/consciousnesses (which clearly are spiritual and NOT material components) after death? They just cease to exist (and are recreated in the resurrection, would we then still be ourselves?) , they go to God’s “memory banks” (and in the resurrection are retrieved and poured into new, perfect bodies), they freeze (and in the resurrection are unfrozen), etc? Is the story of Samuel being raised by the witch at Endor misunderstood or fake? If the nephilim (hybrids between HUMANS and angels) have spirits (also called unclean spirits or demons) that have some sort of existence/consciousness AFTER their death, can’t our souls/spirits have one too (NOT roaming the earth and/or possessing people of course)? Or this is also a misunderstood or fake story? Are we supposed to believe everything that Judaism/Jews teach and consider everything the Greeks teach as untrue? Though not salvational or even important, I believe this is an interesting topic, what are your thoughts guys?
may I ask, when Yahshua said this day you’ll be with me i paradise….. he didn’t go to paradise that day himself to begin with, right? I reads to me like he saying I’m telling you this today ( now ) you will be with me in paradise ( someday )
teresa,
Paradise will be (future) on earth. Yeshua probably didn’t say “today”, but “that day”. The dead (including believers) go to the grave (NOT heaven), and I was trying to discuss whether they temporarily stop existing (their consciousnesses, until resurrection), or they have some kind of existence/consciousness in the grave. I know, it’s a controversial subject, but I’ve always been fascinated about what it means to be alive, the nature of the consciousness, etc. What did Paul mean by Phil 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better? Is it just metaphorical, or it refers to the future paradise with Messiah?
I now tend to believe that Yeshua probably said, that day (future resurrection) you will be with me in paradise. I don’t believe the comma matters, the Gospels always record Yeshua saying, “truly I say to you” and NEVER “truly I say to you today”, though the latter is not impossible.
I’m as uncertain of the process as the next guy, however I am comforted by the words of Yeshua when He said, “Eloheim is the Eloheim of Avraham, Is’aac, and Ya’acov. He is not the Eloheim of the dead but of the living.”
While I am not certain when I will arrive in His Presence, I have faith that I will.
Amen
and Amen
Beautiful!
I agree with you, David. It isn’t going to matter to me, once I’m gone, whether it is instantaneous or whether I “sleep” for a few years (or many); when you sleep you aren’t aware of the passage of time anyway.
“first century Jewish context”
Yeshua said, “If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?” (John 3:12)
Yep, first century Jewish context.
Eternal life…
Not intermittent life…
BTW, a woman, without her Man, is nothing. Our desire is for our Husband and He shall rule over us as He loves us and gives His life for us. Beautiful plan as it all works in righteousness.
April, the “first century Jewish” concept of olam ha’ba – “the world to come” was somewhat different from the post-Nicene Christian doctrine of “eternal life in heaven with God” – they fully expected God’s future kingdom to be here on this earth. That is, after all, what is taught all through scripture from Genesis to Revelation.
Regarding your second comment, I’m actually slightly amused that everyone took what was intended to be a humorous example so seriously. Nevertheless, I don’t believe it was ever God’s original plan for man to “rule over” his woman. There is a whole lot of stuff going on in that story that we miss when we read it from our modern, western paradigm. Believe me, God’s role for women (and his covenant with Chavvah) was much more important than even Germaine Greer could imagine.
In the passage you refer to, post fall, the language there is descriptive, not prescriptive. In other words, God is describing the natural consequences of the actions of Adam and Chavvah, not prescribing how things were supposed to be. That description (“your desire will be for your husband, but he will rule over you”) is the consequence of their sin, not God’s original plan. But that is a much bigger discussion that is definitely off-topic for this post.
I’m not surprised that many take the “man without woman” (and vice-versa) example seriously, starting in childhood.
April,
A woman; without her, man is nothing!
There is a reason YHVH created them male and female! Man needed a helpmate. YHVH gave him a helpmate. We need each other Sister! But, it is great to hear a Woman stand for her husband in the times we live in. It is rare. It is also rare to hear a man stand for his woman. I for one, cherish the helpmate ABBA has given me. Both Spiritual and physical. They are not always the same but they are always special.
I wouldn’t say a man is nothing without a woman. Yeshua didn’t have a woman, and he said there are men who choose celibacy for the kingdom of God, and they are NOT nothing.
Larry,
You have taken that short statement out of the context I so carefully wrapped it in and have found fault.
Every reasonable person would understand that Yeshua is an exception as well as those He may call to a specific lifestyle for His purposes, therefore, they would understand my remarks.
I am sorry you didn’t.
The words, “A woman; without her, man is nothing.” along with the punctuation was suggested in the topic of this thread. I merely used it to make a point that our women are special to us.
Shalom
See David? When public statements are made we all want to be able to respond and be understood publicly. Would it be right to delete your comment only and leave you hanging for the sake of the blog? In my opinion, this hurts the blog and those who participate in reading and writing. I love you, David and write this with respect for the sake of understanding.
Peace and blessings…
Yes April, I see. That is why I sent you a private message instead of a public one.
Your reference to the posts I removed involved more than public statements. They envolved private email conversations between yourself and another Sister which had no place on the blog. That is why they were removed. I am sorry you don’t understand that. I was doing my job as an Editor. I would have removed the comments of the other party also if they were quotes from private conversations through private email.
I love you also April and that is why I wanted this to be cleared up.
I apologize to Rodney and to all the other blog participants for this off subject comment. I intended it to be in a private format.
Shalom and Richest Blessings to you also Dear Sister April.
Why are you dragging us thru this again? My response to you is in the Angry Sheep Group.
Shalom and blessings to you April.
No, I haven’t taken it out of context, I was simply giving examples of men being something, and something great without women. Women, unlike men (who have to be under the authority of God), have to be under the authority of a man, whether husband, father, brother, elder. That doesn’t mean they’re nothing or not great. The word nothing (whether it refers to men or women) is too strong. Yes, women are very special.
But there is an exception right Larry? For the widow and divorced who are directly under the authority of God;
But every vow of a widow, and of her that is divorced, wherewith they have bound their souls, shall stand against her.
(Num 30:9 KJV)
And there appears to be an ‘equality’ for either men or women “being something, and something great” without the other in relation to Messiah;
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
(Gal 3:26-29 KJV)
Teresa C.,
Yes to the last part. About the widows, divorcees, singles, etc like I said, they have to be under the authority of a man. Don’t stone me, I didn’t write the book lol.
@Larry,
No stones, trust me, no stones.
Help me to understand under the authority of which man do the widow and divorced fall under to help me increase my understanding. Thanks Larry.
Teresa C, maybe this will help (not saying I agree with everything), http://weareisrael.org/men-and-women/place-of-safety/
Larry (shalom brother!), that was an excellent article! Like you I don’t agree with everything…but when it got into the story of Nabal, Abigail and David….wow…
I needed to hear that today!! I’m so full of AWE for Yahuwah and His perfect timing. I’m going to post this link on another thread…it applies as encouragement ….so thank you for sharing it brother. Shalom
Lisa (Editor),
I’m happy it helped
I like Michael.
Thank you Larry,
I read the article and posted the verse to him with respect to widows and divorced women. I don’t agree with him, there are numerous cases of righteous women working apart/against their husbands wishes/desires. (Sarah having Abraham cast out Ishmael even though it was very grievous to him, Rebekah having Jacob lie to his father Isaac and Abigail for 1, going behind her husband’s back and 2 prostrating herself and calling another woman’s husband “my Lord”.)
Please don’t misunderstand me, I too believe that there is most certainly the hierarchy YHVH set up and a woman’s covering is her husband. But there are exceptions that He has put into place (Num30:9) and it would be unwise and even unkind not to recognize them; widowed and divorced women being one group and those that leave their husbands to protect themselves or their children from ungodly abuse are also a part of that group. Clearly their husbands are not ‘pleased’ (1Cor7:13) to dwell with them and all these women are now under the covering of to whom they submit themselves, hopefully YHVH.
Shalom
Shalom,
Teresa I agree with you 100 percent I was reading on the site and found one brother who mentioned the same thing about abuse and such. While I may not be in a physical abuse situation I will just say it is not healthy here and I have been doing all I can by Abbas word. I feel that tender sincerity for sisters in situations that are not good for them or their children.
Teresa C.,
The article has 4 parts I think, so maybe you have to read everything in order to understand the whole message…dunno (I haven’t read the whole thing), just saying.
@Larry,
Ok, oops! Sorry about that – I’ll read the other parts, I only read part 1. BTW, why would you direct me to an article you haven’t read to answer my question? (just saying.)
Teresa,
I only glanced at the article. I saw right away that I disagreed with it and I will tell you why.
A woman following and obeying a husband that leads outside of the Word is akin to what the Apostles told the Sanhedrin in Acts 4: 19-20. “…Whether it be right in the sight of Eloheim to hearken unto you more than unto Eloheim, you judge. For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.”
The Apostolic Scriptures are very clear in saying, in Ephesians 5, 22-26, “Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Messiah is the head of the Assembly: and he is the savior of the body. Therefore as the Assembly is subject unto Messiah, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. Husbands, love your wives, even as Messiah also loved the Assembly, and gave himself for it; that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word.”
This passage has been used down through the “church age” as a weapon to beat women into submission. Emphesis has been put on the woman and instructions to the men have been ignored. How convenient!
The passage is clear in its comparison that women are to obey their husbands as the Assembly is the Bride of Messiah. It is the Proverbs 31, Virtuous woman model found in verses 10 through 31. The virtuous woman is the Bride of Messiah, however, the husband is also to emulate Messiah. Outside of a proper Torah relationship there is no obedience required.
I try to put the shoe on the other foot. If I were a woman and my husband ordered me to do something that violated my conscience, I would refuse. We should never allow a human being to take precedence over the Word of the Almighty! Never!
Regarding the Article,
I am not judging it. Like I said, I only glanced at it and found things I disagreed with, however, closer inspection may have changed my mind. I did not give it a fair viewing.
But, I stand by my words that the ultimate head of the wife is YHVH, then Yeshua, as He emulated YHVH, then the husband as He emulates Yeshua.
David (Editor),
That’s what I thought too, that at a closer look, a lot of things in the article make biblical sense.
Teresa C.,
I haven’t read the whole article, I skimmed through it and found SOME stuff that I liked and considered biblical. And by the way, I said, MAYBE this (the article) will help you, as in “check it out YOURSELF”…sorry for not having more time.
Larry,
I don’t know if you also listened to his presentation on the 144,000. If not, I would suggest that you listen to it. He says some things in that presentation that are pretty anti-woman that I find insulting and unbiblical. I believe he has forgotten that Adam had some responsibility in the fall as well.
David (Editor),
I did not listen to it, but I’m pretty sure he knows about Adam’s responsibility. Can you give some examples, maybe. Just to be clear, I don’t know Michael or his other teachings.
Larry,
I would be glad to do that when I get time. It will require me to go back and listen to his program on the 144,000 again and either write down his remarks or mark the place where he made them and give it to you.
An alternative is to go to the article you originally posted and click on the words 144,000, in the first paragraph and it will take you to the audio. You will have to listen to all of it. I believe the several comments I am referring to are in the last half. I took the comments to be very offensive of women in general.
Translating Punctuation when there is No Punctuation to Translate
Jonathan Morgan, on our share page, asks this,
One thing I have heard a number of times is the assertion that “Greek has no punctuation”, and that as a result we can choose to repunctuate the *English* in any way we like, because “it’s all just been added by the translator anyway”. I’ve never been entirely convinced by this…
First, good for you not being convinced by the apparent, and incorrect, logic of “no punctuation in the original means we can punctuate the translation any way we like.” We are never free to translate “any way we like.” The goal is accuracy. Secondly, there’s an underlying assumption (if I myself may assume such) in the “logic” that punctuating is not translation. The use of punctuation in the destination text most certainly is translation as is such things as paragraph breaks and section breaks.
English uses punctuation. So, punctuation is required in the translation, or it wouldn’t be clear and natural—it wouldn’t communicate to an English audience. However, just because there were no punctuation marks, per se in the original, does not mean the function of punctuation was not performed in the original. The function of punctuation is to generate meaning pauses for the reader so as to generate cognitive chunking (think of this as taking bites of the text with your mind). And so it is such a basic cognitive requirement that, as far as language goes, this function is a language universal. So, the function is there; we just need to determine how that function is formally captured in the original so we can accurately translate the meaning into a language that uses punctuation marks.
Before I give some explanation, I’ll point out that the web page you point us to gives a good explanation. The question the web page answers shows a wrong assumption about the translated text. It says, “Holman, CEV and others place the comma in a way that implies that Jesus had already risen, before the first day of the week,” citing Mark 16:9–“very early on the first day of the week, after Jesus had risen to life, he appeared…” While the translation might imply that Jesus had risen before the first day, the translation does not say that. It simply and only says that the resurrection happened before the appearance, and that Mary saw Jesus very early. Sometimes I think we judge a text by the cover we ourselves project on to it. While an important criteria for translation is to be unambiguous, we can’t prevent people from wrongly interpreting a text no matter how clearly we write it (see 2 Peter 3:15-16). I think there’s a tacit contract between translator and reader that each will do the best they can. There are no major translation publications where the translators have intended to lead the reader astray. I felt I had to get this out of the way.
I’m going to illustrate from the Greek. I assume Hebrew and Aramaic are analogous. Basically, the question is: What are some of the mechanisms ancient koine Greek used to “punctuate” the Biblical text?
Well, for example, Mark (and others) frequently used καί (KAI, ‘and’) to mark a sentence break.[1] Open an NASB to Mark 3:13-20 for a good illustration of this. The function καί brings to the text is to mark the closing and opening of two sentences. This “punctuation mark” (if you will) is much like our English period and a capital letter. Δέ (DE, ‘and’, ‘so’) frequently performs the same function.
Also, one should not think that the Gospel of Mark is rapid fire because he uses so many καί–”and this, and this, and this”. That’s not what is going on. That’s interpreting the Greek using an English idiom (ie. way of thinking with our language). Many times καί “provides” the punctuation between two sentences.
However, let me be clear here. Καί and δέ perform other functions, too; the ones we normally think of them doing. Καί connects two semantic items which are otherwise equal. Δέ adds supporting material to what has just been written. However, just like so many things in translation, there is no one-to-one mapping between the form in the original and its analog in the destination. The mapping between the languages is nearly always many-to-many. That is, the characteristics that a specific form brings to the text in the original will map to multiple forms in the destination and vice-versa.
This complexity is why the Tower of Babel was so successful, and it makes translation hard. I’ll also point out that translating punctuation is clearly one place where a naive adherence to a formal equivalent methodology breaks down. A naive adherence that no formally equivalent translation follows. Since there was no punctuation in the original, there’s no way to formally map it to the destination. The point being: Even the formal equivalent methodology must follow a functional equivalent methodology when it comes to punctuation.
So, there were no punctuation marks in the original; but that function is dispersed through many Greek forms. And one of the characteristics of those original forms (a punctuation function) maps to the many punctuation marks in English. So, it’s not arbitrary. But, nor is it formally equivalent.
Furthermore, Greek has flexible word order, but it is certainly common for the Greek sentence to either begin or end with a verb. This, too, tends to mark the breaks between sentences. Obviously, I’m not describing this in a mechanically precise way. Nor is its use or non-use determinative. To illustrate, I’m saying that the sentence in Acts 1:2 ends in a verb and the one in Acts 1:3 begins with one.
ἄχρι ἧς ἡμέρας … ἀνελήμφθη. οἷς καὶ παρέστησεν ἑαυτὸν ζῶντα…
“Until which day…he was taken up. To whom he also presented himself alive…
It’s very natural and expected to have the phrase οἷς καὶ pre-positional to the verb and still think of the verb as being “first” in the sentence. An author will vary the verb’s position for a variety of reasons. I believe “punctuation” to be one of those reasons. Again, there’s no, neat, sweat, simple one-to-one mapping.
There are other forms, too. I may be wrong, but I’ve often thought that one way of making direct speech very clear is the often used combination of two verbs of speaking used in close proximity. For example, ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς (Literally: “Answering, the Jesus said to-them.”) In English, we punctuate with double-quotes. In Greek, the ἀποκρίνομαι does more than just help fulfill this punctuation function, it also characterizes the way Jesus said what he said. Again, it’s many-to-many. An accurate translation is: Jesus answered, “…” or even Jesus responded, “…”. For our purposes here, note the quotation marks in the translation. They are not in the original, per se. But, their function is.
There’s much more that could be said. Hopefully, this provides enough meat so you and others will have confidence that punctuation is not arbitrarily decided. Punctuation, like every other form (or symbol as used in semiotics) signals something. The way at getting at that “signaling something” is to ask and answer, what function is it performing. Since the function punctuation performs is so cognitively basic, we expect the function to be in the original even when the English way of performing that function is no where to be found. I hope my start of an answer generates some further examples in the comments as well as some discussion.
—
[1] The so called definition that καί and δέ mean ‘and’ or ‘but’ is far too simplistic, and it is either wrong or at best an insufficient explanation. The continuity or discontinuity provided by the English ‘and’ or ‘but’ is provided in the Greek by the semantics of the sentence. Καί connects two equal items; δέ adds supporting material. Again, there’s a mapping between the original and the destination languages, but one cannot simply match the forms
Thanks michaEl. I’m not sure if the repetitive use of καί to begin sentences was characteristic of Greek as a whole, or even “Koine” (literally “defiled”) or “Street Greek”. It actually points to a Semitic (esp. Hebrew) origin for the original narrative because the use of “and” (in Hebrew indicated by the letter “vav”) is a fundamental characteristic of Biblical Hebrew. Look back at Genesis 1:
“v’yomer Elohiym yehi or v’yehi or” – “And God said, “Light Be” and light was”.
In Genesis ch 1 every verse with the exception of verse 1 starts with the “vav” conjunction (“and”) – it is just not always translated into English because it doesn’t read particularly well if every sentence begins with “And”. That’s only one chapter – look through the rest of the Hebrew Bible and you’ll see the same pattern.
Guys, let’s try to stay on topic, also what are your thoughts on my first comment?
Hi Larry, I’ve been thinking about the things you wrote. I am thinking along the lines of resting with our fathers.
“Are we supposed to believe everything that Judaism/Jews teach and consider everything the Greeks teach as untrue?”
No, of course not. Much of “modern” rabbinic Judaism is very hellenic in its teaching and philosophy – that process began when Judah was conquered by Alexander the Great and his cohorts.
The point is that we need to be looking at what the text actually says, not what we’ve been told to believe about what it says.
The doctrines and practice have to be informed by and formed out of the text, rather than the interpretation of the text being informed by the doctrine.