What are the consequences of not keeping Torah? (By Chris)
It is clear that each of you believe that all of the Law is to be kept today. But at the same time I have heard you say over and over again that Salvation is by grace through faith in Christ Jesus. So then, please articulate what is the consequence of not keeping Torah and instead walking in the ways of traditional Christian interpretation?
26 May 2010
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in the sky with diamonds
You always shout something obscene.
lol…it was an old song by the beatles
So was my quote. Mean mister mustard.
I am in Carlton, OR. Near McMinnville. I know we have some common friends. In fact, our neighbors, Sean and Julie and their parents Bill and (I just forgot his wife’s name) just came from Bend not long ago for business. We fellowship with a lovely group of locals. You are in Bend, right? Do you fellowship with Bonnie and Olie?
Luci,
I am in Redmond. 17 miles north of Bend. Bonnie and Oli are also in Redmond. Yes, I fellowship with them.
The group in Bend as you stated is a wonderful group. I am actually on the membership list of that group although I don’t get down there much. If I did, it would be a disappointment to Bonnie and Oli and our little Redmond group. But I do get down there occasionally. Or did I misunderstand you about the Bend group. Are you saying you fellowship with a group of locals in McMinnville? Either way, It is wonderful to know that we have some connection.
I thought when I ask above where you are located that you may be in Bend and I hadn’t met you.
I look forward to meeting you at Sukkot.
Scot,
Did you get my meaning yet? Don’t challenge me on Beatles songs. While I was a heathen they were my favorite group. lol
I do fellowship with TOB’s in Yamhill, close to McMinnville. That is nice to hear we have some common acquaintances. I, too look forward to meeting you at Sukkot.
Blessings!
David…you are still a heathen…lol. Just kidding…brother.
Scot,
I guess we all have our heathen moments. That’s why we need a Savior. I can growl with the best of them.
What are the consequences of not keeping Torah? One word, Disobedience
Duncan,
I’ll take it one step further… death.
For those that disagree please read what the writer of Hebrews had to say about it in verse 10:26-27:
“If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.”
Kind of makes pinpointing what “sin” is extremely important doesn’t it? Most of us here know what sin is… I pray for those who have not yet seen the Truth at this late hour.
PS Duncan,
I know you don’t disagree… I was positioning that statement toward those who may be reading who are still “on the fence” regarding the commandments of YHWH in these late days.
Chris,
If I’ve ever attacked you please accept my apology. I just disagree with your theological views and try to shed light on it from my perspective… I know you’re just doing the same and it’s clear we’re both not budging on our positions…
One of us is right and one is wrong, and we are near enough to the end to let Yeshua sort this out for us.
Harvest,
You have usually been pretty nice to me. If I have offended you I am sorry as well.
Chris,
Sin in you will always view God’s commandments as an attack. That is not to say that sometimes people don’t get in the flesh in their presentation of the scriptures.
I donot view God’s commands as an attack. What I consider an attack is people wanting me removed, people calling me a false teacher, wolf, etc. The reality is that I am frequently attacked and it is totally acceptable because of my beliefs. There is a double standard here. You are aware but you choose to ignore it.
Chris,
Nope we’re good! Thanks for the sentiments, I appreciate that.
I think that we’re just noticing (on both sides) a line being drawn in the sand. I’ve said this before in another thread. I personally believe that this line will slowly deepen until it turns into a great chasm where there will be sheep on one side and goats on another. We just don’t want to see you on the wrong side.
I believe that right now the trumpets are being blasted. There will be those who wake up to the Truth of the scriptures and start walking obediently as they shed off the traditional views, and those who remain in them thinking they are justified just like the seven churches in Revelation. I believe the bridegroom is almost upon us and the door to the “ark” will be shut very soon… there are wise and foolish virgins right?
Well I believe the oil to be the Spirit and the spirit cannot produce different fruit from the Messiah.
When we start to look like Him and walk as He did then we are starting to produce His Spiritual fruit. He is the vine and we need to examine whether we are producing His fruit or we will be cut off and burned. Yes we have to love our neighbors like ourselves but more importantly we have to love our Father with all our heart, mind and strength!
What made the foolish virgins foolish? I believe this was their folly, they forgot about loving YHVH first! How do we do that? By keeping His commandments.
Revelation 12:17 The dragon was provoked to anger against the woman; and he went to war against her remaining survivors, who obey the Commandments of YHVH, AND have the Testimony of Yeshua. <– wise virgins!
/end of rant!
Chris,
With all do respect and no offense intended…your beliefs do not matter if it defies what is said by YHWH.
Scot,
I acutally agree, the real question is, who is defying Yahweh?
Know this: I am still here although I disagree and have been threatened to be removed. I have called you on the phone 4 times today. I have learned much during my time here. But regardless of how much I learn here I have found inconsistencies and doctrinal errors that I cant accept. Let me tell you a couple of things I have learned.
-The Sabbath issue is not as cut and dry as the established church would have many think. ——->movement towards your position although not complete acceptance.
-The Modern church has a poor understanding of the Jewishness of our faith.
-Jesus may have risen before Sunrise on Sunday morning.
There is more I have learned but these are a couple ofthe bigger issues. If you think those are small things then you dont understand who I am and what I do for a living. Having said that I have serious issues with other aspects of your theology. My point is this has been profitable, I believe for both sides. I would say many of those who dont want me here are struggling with their own beliefs or are very resentful to the established church for how they were treated. That is too bad.
do = due
Chris,
Most here have known that Christianity is not the established church and is instead a religion which contains unbelievers and believers. A lie repeated often enough often becomes truth to those without a plumbline. YHWH’s commandments are that plumline.
Hey Chris,
I think it’s cool that you learned some things. I would just like to reiterate that some people here are starting to realize that our theologies are just like oil and water, we can walk together for a while but when the conversation comes to the law and obedience to it that is where we are forced to part ways.
Again, how can two walk together unless they are in agreement? We can walk with you about most things but certain things force us apart… it was designed to be this way.
It is the dividing line and we believe observance to the feasts and commandments will be the line measured to divide the sheep from the goats… you do not. Our position comes off as offensive to you because you are placing yourself on the other side of it. We are just calling it like we see it… unfortunately what we perceive the Word to say is doing the dividing not us.
We mean no disrespect or offense to you or anyone else with your theological views I can assure you of that.
Harvest,
My friend maybe I just dont belong here. Although that is ironic, many here dont feel welcome in traditional churches, and I am not welcome here. Irony if you ask me.
A Song of Ascents. Behold, how good and pleasant it is when brothers dwell in unity!
That word dwell implies continuity, abode, foundation. Not the tossing back and forth of man’s doctrines.
Chris,
YOU DO BELONG HERE.
It is your doctrine that don’t.
I agree with David.
except for the grammar…lol
Chris,
I also agree with David and Scot, do you agree ?
Duncan,
I am not sure. It is a nice gesture but I often feel like some here totally hate me. My beliefs are sincere and those who disagree might do well to treat me with kindness. Thats all. We can disagree without being disagreeable.
You’re welcome here Chris. It’s just that our doctrine will always be a dividing line. We think that obedience runs deeper than what you perceive it to. We also believe that the scriptures prove this to be true.
Like I said, we can walk together on many other issues but when we honestly look at our beliefs the issue of the extent of our obedience will ALWAYS divide us. I believe it’s the separation of the wheat and the tares, sheep and goats, etc. The wheat bends under the movement of the Spirit while the tares stand proud in defiance (cool analogy I heard from some guy with a long beard one time.)
I’m not calling you a tare, I know the Spirit is pressing on you and you want to submit with all your heart… but you have to step out in faith to get the blessings. You have to be a doer of the Word and not just a hearer. I know you do many things in your community and as such you are fulfilling the second greatest commandment “love thy neighbor.” We would urge you not to forget about the first!
After taking a moment and reflecting on my own heart I know that I could do a bit more loving of my neighbor… you have shown me that. Thank you.
Scot,
I am a hillbilly from the backwoods of Kentucky! If you ever had chance to go there and listen to those folks you would discover that when it comes to grammar, I’ve come a long way.
But, you are correct. So, I will correct.
“Your doctrine doesn’t.”
Hi all. I read something very profound recently that is relevant to this discussion.
Think on that for a while…
Rodney,
Hi, like the sounds of that, share more… and we’ll be chewing in anticipitation.
HarvestGroup, you said:
It’s funny, but my husband and I have noticed in the church we’ve been attending that that is exactly what is going on. One of the reasons we started attending there was their love one for another. It was truly amazing to see and experience that demonstrated in service towards one another. But as time went by, we started to notice that that was it…that was what they were all about. It’s as if they esteemed that as the first & greatest commandment. That church was *known* for their love for one another.
In fact, this past Sunday the pastor preached on 1 Samuel 2. Which surprised me, since he usually dwells in Paul’s letters (we just finished 2 Corinthians). I was looking forward to hearing the message, but it was so strange how things started jumping out at me (call it discernment, I guess). One of his points regarding Eli’s wicked sons was that “the real problem with their sin was how it affected the Israelites.” And immediately I was taken aback, and thought, “no, the real problem is that they sinned against the LORD.”
And all of a sudden the emphasis on “one another” became so distasteful to me. The service was concluding and they were getting ready to have communion, and I felt the need to leave before partaking in it. So I did.
It’s as if they have elevated “one another” over the LORD our God, and it has become repulsive to me. Don’t get me wrong, I have learned a lot concerning how to better love one another in deed through them. And yes, we are commanded to do so. But woe to us, if we make each other our god. I think some people have taken the verse in James 2:8 as giving permission to esteem one another too high.
Maybe I’m off here, but many have left that congregation in the few years we’ve been there because of “ministry burnout”, and I think it’s because we’ve got our priorities out of whack. The NT from what I can see doesn’t focus much on how to love the LORD our God with all our everything (perhaps because it’s quite clear in the OT how to do that), so the tendency is to see God (since Jesus came) as all lovey-dovey, and “He won’t mind if we set aside Sunday vs the Sabbath”, and “He’s pleased with our Easter/Christmas celebrations even if they’re not Biblical because He knows our heart”, etc. We forget that He is a holy and just God. He cannot tolerate sin…it is not in His nature. Yes, Jesus is our righteousness, but that doesn’t mean we can just disregard God’s commandments and do what’s right in our own eyes.
And you know, since I’ve been focusing all of my heart on loving the LORD, learning from Him, seeking to understand His ways, my outlook on serving one another has changed dramatically. Instead of feeling like “I really need to do more”, I’m just doing more. I serve others more now as an overflow of my relationship with the LORD, rather than as an obligation or duty. I’ve been in this place before in my walk with the LORD…and it’s usually been when I was drawing closer to Him.
Anyway, sorry that was so long…I just thought the observation of the priorities in the “love thy neighbor…” vs “love the LORD…with all your heart…” was spot on in my personal situation.
Carrie,
I get what you are saying but Eli and his sons sin really did hurt the nation of Israel. When leaders fail morally it always hurts the flock of God.
That is powerful…I identify with that experience, wholeheartedly…
and submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
Ephesians 5: 21
subjecting yourselves one to another in the fear of Messiah.
” “
Carrie,
Great post! True words indeed sister!
Also, I forgot to mention that I’m glad that you confirmed for me what the Spirit laid on my heart. That was a huge blessing to me! Thank you.
Greetings,
When leaders fail morally it always hurts the flock of God.
Chris,
Would you expound on this please?
Shalom,
Mike
Greetings,
A Psalm,
Psa 123:1 A Song of degrees. Unto thee lift I up mine eyes, O thou that dwellest in the heavens.
Psa 123:2 Behold, as the eyes of servants look unto the hand of their masters, and as the eyes of a maiden unto the hand of her mistress; so our eyes wait upon the LORD our God, until that he have mercy upon us.
Psa 123:3 Have mercy upon us, O LORD, have mercy upon us: for we are exceedingly filled with contempt.
Psa 123:4 Our soul is exceedingly filled with the scorning of those that are at ease, and with the contempt of the proud.
Shalom,
Mike
Chris,
I understand that is true, but the greater issue was the sin against the LORD, in my opinion. The message confirmed to me where the blinders were in my pastor. He had several points to his message…another focused on the relationship with Eli and his sons and how Eli was wrong in honoring his sons over the LORD. So our pastor used that example with our relationship with our children. He’s really great with marriage/family counseling and I love how he ministers in that area, but he has a blind spot (as we all do). Unfortunately we don’t have anyone in leadership (elders) at that church to balance him out. None of his points addressed the gravity of his treating the LORD’s offering with contempt. (1 Samuel 2:17)
Chris,
You said, “I am not sure. It is a nice gesture but I often feel like some here totally hate me. ”
Chris, I know you mean me with this statement.
As I have told you often, That is not true. Not even close to true. I love you Chris and I can’t wait for the day when you realize it.
Yes, we fight. I have said harsh things and so have you. I could group all your remarks about me together and come to the conclusion that you hate me. Well, do you? If we are to have friends we must show ourselves to be friendly. If you are willing to try then so am I.
But, I will never be friendly with your doctrine. I believe it is dangerous and needs to be totally wiped off the face of the earth. But, that is your doctrine, not you.
Chris,
God loves you and he expects you to obey him…
Scot,
God loves you and did all the work for you on the cross, you were dead in trespasses and sin and are made alive only in Christ, not by the Torah.
Interesting topic and question: what are the consequences for those who do not think that Torah observance is required of believers.
I, too, have asked this question of those in the Law keeping stream of faith, and have never gotten a straight answer.
I’ve read through the comments here (whew) and only saw one direct answer that squares with the requirements of Torah: that one is damned if one does not obey.
Which is a problem for those of you who are observant and say that salvation is not pivotal on Torah observance. Scripture says that those who believe on Christ as Saviour are not damned. And if those who say that those who believe on Christ yet keep not the Law are damned . . . well, you see the problem there. It is at that point that someone is preaching salvation by Law, not salvation by Christ.
Torah requires obedience or there are consequences. Not keeping the Sabbath, for instance, required a death penalty.
If those who claim to be truly observing the edicts and regulations of Torah are actually doing so, how do you carry out the enforcement aspects required by Torah Law?
JGIG,
You have gotten down to the very heart of the matter. The idea that is presented by many here is inconsistent and in direct contradiction with the New Covenant ushered in by Christ. The reality is that many here after receiving the Spirit by faith are expecting to be perfected by the flesh. We are saved by faith not the Law. The Laws purpose is to reveal sin and point us to Christ, the Law is for the unrighteous not the righteous.
How telling that you guys are completely ignoring JGIG!!! Why is it I am not surprised?
Matthew 5:17-20
17″Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
So the Law (jot and tittle) MUST be followed – EXCEPT for the part that makes it potent – but that’s because it was just the curse of the Law that was nailed to the Cross . . . no wait . . . that was just the oral traditions of men that was nailed . . . no . . . it had to be the curses, didn’t it? But aren’t the curses/punishment part of the jots and tittles . . . oh wait . . . what to do with those since the jots and tittles are still there . . . Law is still to be followed . . . jots and tittles because, well, the Earth IS still here, maybe all except for the curse jot and tittles is to be kept . . . . maybe that part of the Law doesn’t have jots and tittles . . . .??
Round and ’round the alleged reasoning goes, but all of the arguments supporting Law ‘keeping’ cannot be argued at the same time or the REALLY HUGE INCONSISTENCIES start showing themselves.
The ‘Law’ that they ‘keep’ is impotent. It is not at all THE Law as it was given to Moses. and those who mandate the keeping of Mosaic Covenant Law insult both the Law that, after the Cross, leads us to Christ and the Blood of Christ which frees us from sin.
One of the Law keepers’ main points of persuasion is to tell us over and over that “God does not change – and neither does His Law!”, yet they totally toss the penalty portion of the Law as they attempt to ‘keep’ the Law.
To follow that way of thinking not only cheapens the Law and the Holiness of God, but also devalues the amazing Grace that God extends to us in the Gospel.
-JGIG
Matthew 5:17-20
17″Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.â€
Taking that passage in isolation, one could make a case for the mandatory keeping of Mosaic Covenant Law for believers, because, as anyone in a Law keeping sect worth their salt will tell you, you can plainly see that the earth is still here, isn’t it? And looking around , you would have to agree, that yes indeed, the earth has not disappeared. Well that settles it then! The Law is for believers today! And to be called great in the kingdom of heaven, you must teach these commands to others.
That conclusion, however, takes leaps over information about events that had not yet happened (the Cross, Resurrection and Ascension, implementing the New Covenant in Christ) and inspired Scriptures written to the Body of Christ which did not yet exist.
Why did Jesus say this to His Jewish contemporaries:
“I have many more things to tell you, but YOU CANNOT BEAR THEM NOW. But when He, the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine & will disclose it to you.†John 16:12-14…
-JGIG
Are you reading into the text , that those things they can not bear are Constantinian Christianity. Trinity , Sunday , Easter , Christmas , The pope, The inquisition, the murdering , the theft of children , tongues pulled out with iron pliers , the rack, deliberate ignorance and the conquering of the laity , exalting men into the position of Christ , indulgences , rape , murder intrigue , burning synagogues , gassing Jews, mafia making no distinction between the holy and the profane , the clean or the unclean. Is that the leading to the Holy Spirit ?
Are you a shill for a doctrine that was birthed out of just that the fruit of Wolves. If it were not for Martin Luther , a step out of this horrendous damnable doctrines of men you might be right their persecuting Jews , burning Christians at the stake for not confessing the trinity, keeping the Shabat or a Jewish Feast?
Would you mock those who would dare , to actually hear the will of the Father and do it? Those that withdraw their foot from polluting his Sabbath , to be the repairer of the breach , the restorer of paths to dwell in ?
And YET not one jot or tittle has passed from the Torah , Messiah makes intersession for us , and is our high priest officiating the law , sin is still a transgression of the law. And sin still brings forth death , and SHOULDN’T WE be grateful for the remedy and peace we have with YHVY through the Son , and not so vain as to imagine WE are not a sinners , saying ” WE have no sin!”
WE are replete of understanding and rash , and unthankful , I’m afraid . Shouldn’t we be rather humble , inclining our ears to the instructions and teachings that sanctify us , the Word of the Father is truth , that we are supposed to be sanctified by . AS Messiah said , sanctify them by thy word , thy word is truth.
If there is no law , there is no sin , and if there is no sin there is no need for a savior. If there is No law , there is no correction by our Father and we are all still unsaved rebellious bastards. I believe that is how Hebrews phrases it. There is absolutely a standard we will be judged by, and the sooner you embrace that fact, and are obedient to it , the sooner you will be blessed, becuase to continue teaching rebellion will lead to your own destruction. You don’t know him if you think we are not under grave danger in teaching lawlessness.
I think John pointed that out after The cross , the resurrection, and he wrote many admonishments to one such as you and I , who didn’t think Torah made a hill of beans.
1Jo 2:1 ¶ My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 1Jo 2:1 ¶ My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.
1Jo 2:3 ¶ And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
B”H
Matityahu 5:19
Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Obedience produces reward…disobedience and teaching of such loses reward (to say the least)
Shalom Chris! If someone breaks the law in a way or another in your state does it make the law which have been broken against null and void? Of course not! If someone pays your debt because of breaking a parking law does it make the parking law null and void? Of course not!
YEs, Yeshua has redeemed us in His blood, but that just a beginning to grow in His grace towards Father’s image. Torah is for our growing process in His grace. Grace is the power (a “tool”) to grow in knowing of Him deeper and deeper. In Yeshua we are even more capable of keeping Torah simply because He is the Messiah and He has all the power to live in us. Keeping Torah is loving the Father and the Son (John 14:15).
Torah is more than the moral law a.k.a 10 commandments. Torah is Hebrew and it means “instruction” or “teaching”. Torah is Father’s heart. We ask often “what is God’s will?” His will can be found from Torah. Torah is His fatherly instructions and teachings to us that we could keep ten commandments not according to our wisdom and ways, but according to His wisdom and ways which is in Torah. In Yeshua we have power to do that in a revolutionary way.
Faith is not only believing something, but doing=obeying the Father in everything. Study the great letters of John. I think they are special kind of Torah defender -letters in Brit Chadasha (“New testament”).
Once we get saved we are cleansed from our sins but that’s not enough because the Father wants that we would grow in His grace too. To be cleansed and redeemed is just the beginning. To grow in His grace is to know and do according Father’s heart and His hearth is Torah. Every father thinks for the best of his children with rules and regulations. So do the heavenly Father. All believers have the same Father and same laws, rules and regulations are for everyone in His house (4. Mos. 15:14-17). Father does not give different rules etc for different kind of children. We are living in the same home of the Father as “Jews and “Greeks”.