An examination of the Pauline Epistles. Are they Scripture? (By David)
To carry over the discussion on the thread, “What does the future hold…,” We were discussing the Pauline Epistles and in a lesser degree all of the Apostolic Writings. Are they Scripture? Are they the “Word of Eloheim” What weight should we assign them in our walk with Messiah? It is understood that this is very controversial and could get heated. Let’s not allow that to happen. To insure that it doesn’t, I, as the author of the thread reserve the right to delete all or part of any comment that is insulting to others in any way. If Scot does not agree with this “right” or practice, let him say so up front and I will allow him the right (which is his anyway) to govern the content himself.
02 February 2010
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Also, how can Paul be sent forth from YHWH if He preaches that the law has been abrogated? I know, I know… sometimes he praises it and sometimes he wipes his mouth with it. It’s that chameleon syndrome coming through again.
Paul states that Abraham was justified by faith and it was credited to him as righteousness, but James had other things to say about that… it seems as though he was aware of what Paul’s true message was but for some reason we feel like we have a better understanding of what Paul REALLY meant 2,000 years later. Kind of far out don’t ya think?
I’m telling you guys, by keeping Paul in the camp your fighting an uphill battle. What leg would any of these denominationalists (no offense Chris) have to stand on if not for Paul’s writings? NONE! Bind him up and teach Yeshua, the Law and the prophets… problem solved.
It seems simple enough… let’s continue on in the points above though regarding the heresy trial in Ephesus, before we move on to James’ epistle.
Also, let it be known that I’m not saying to judge Paul (that is not our job), I’m speaking metaphorically about his writings being not used in the assemblies. They are not and should not ever be considered Holy Scriptures.
In fact, the early assemblies (pre-RCC) only included them to be used as edifying SO LONG as they weren’t being used to contradict Yeshua and the Tenakh. There is historical proof of this in Tertullian’s writings…
Harvest,
If you can’t accept clear exegesis then I am waisting my time. I will resort to prayer. It is too difficult to sit here and type with my arm in a sling to have context ignored and definitions denied.
Blessings Harvest!
Thanks for the prayers David.
I don’t believe it’s as clear as you would like to believe though… also you didn’t even really mention any of the points made in any of my previous posts, all you did was question the meaning of the word “apostle”. Let’s shift the focus away from that as it’s actually quite irrelevant to the case presented. Let’s focus for a moment on the heresy trial mentioned above.
Also, the early church understood this and that’s where the points where taken from. Tertullian had many more resources regarding the events that happened just 200 years prior to these events than we do now over 2000 later! Remember, the further we get from the source the darker everything becomes (not the other way around.) Look at the sad state of things in this present day, if you need evidence of this statement.
Also, I think that if you read Paul’s epistles to a child they would walk away thinking the same thing that the current christian denominations teach. Isn’t this telling? Scot always says to Chris, “let’s read the passage to your 4 year old and see what they think… “the same applies here.
If it’s not clear enough for a child to understand than it’s not inspired by YHWH’s Spirit. We don’t need to do exegetical pretzels to come into the truth of the Word of YHWH… it is what it is. With or without Paul’s (possibly unintended) confusion…
Harvest,
The current condition of the Christian Churches are directly related to the teachings of men like Tertullian. And the further still we get away without correction of the false doctrines and lies of men like Tertullian the worse yet they will become if Yeshua tarries, which I doubt.
If you are so taken with the likes of Tertullian then allow me to quote him for you”
What of the Torah?
“We do not now deal with the Law any further than to remark that the apostle here teaches clearly how it has been abolished, by passing from shadow to substance. That is, it has passed from figurative types to the reality, which is Christ” (c. 207,W),3.471. Do you believe this Harvest?
What about the Sabbath,
“Just as the abolition of fleshly circumcision and of the old Law is demonstrated as having been consummated at its specific times, so also the observance of the Sabbath is demonstrated to have been temporary.” (c 197, W). 3,155.
Would it be unfair to call him an anti-semite,
“Let the Jews recognize their own fate, a fate which was constantly fortold as destined to occur after the advent of Christ. This fate was on account of the impiety with which they despised and slew Him…Thereafter, God’s grace desisted among them, And the clouds were commanded not to rain a shower upon the vineyard of Sorek, the clouds being celestial benefit.” (c 197, W) 3,171.
If you wish to rely upon the church fathers so called to support your argument you will have to continue it with Chris. I have no patience with it.
If I read the English translations of Paul to a child after they have been manipulated over 1700 years of editing by those with a bias against all things Jewish then yes you are right. But, If I dig in and learn the truth and teach the truth to a child if he has an ounce of intelligence he will see the lie that has been perpetuated upon men for these 2000 years. If you show a child the true meaning of a word and that child then rejects it in favor of his own desire to destroy the character of an Apostle of Messiah then that child is a fool. That is where I begin to see that though one claims to only want to learn, that claim is bogus when he rejects clear exegesis. That is where my patience ends.
Again, you actually addressed nothing in my argument except to smear Tertullian, who as far as I know fought against Marcion because of his hatred for Jew’s and the Torah (not that it matters what he believes anyway because his writings aren’t scripture either but only to be used as edifying just like Paul so long as they don’t conflict with Messiah.)
“Marcion sets up unequal gods.” Tertullian writes, “The one a judge, fierce and warlike, the other mild and peaceable, solely kind and supremely good” Is this also not exactly what many followers of Jesus Christ do? They shun the “Old Testament God” because He is too stern and fierce. They focus instead upon the “New Testament God,” who, in their minds, does not expect obedience to His laws. They can’t comprehend YHVH-Jesus Christ, shouting “depart from me, I never knew you, into the flames you foul workers of iniquity!”
Tertullian opposes Marcion’s misuse of Paul’s writings by pointing out the “Jewishness†of Paul’s faith, and then asking, “What had (Paul) still to do with Jewish custom, if he was the destroyer of Judaism?â€13
Tertuilian also refers to Romans 7:7, to combat Marcion’s hatred of the Torah: “What shall we say then? That the law is sin? God fordid.â€Shame on you, Marcion. God forbid: the apostle expresses abhorrence of complaint against the Torah…Yet he adds even more: “The Torah is holy, and its commandment is just, and good.†As Tertullian points out later, “you cannot make a promoter of the Torah into an opponent of it.â€
Anyway, I only referenced them to say that if anyone goes against the teachings of Messiah they should not be used, otherwise they should be used for edification on NOT scripture that is Spirit breathed. Can you use the teachings of Messiah to go against Messiah? No! Then that is scripture, it’s clear to the point and has NEVER been manipulated to say anything different. Wonder why? Maybe because it’s scripture???
And since when were we against bringing in outside sources to validate historical claims? Must have missed that rule, what, with everyone else doing all the time.
Furthermore, (forgive me if this sounds crass) you’re going to have to do better than arguing the use of the word “apostle” and smearing a church father who I could care less about if you want to seriously refute any of the points of contention listed above. If you’re patience is worn out thank you for your time. I will continue to pray about this but if you expected to just slide in and change my mind in two or three blog posts then you misjudged just how seriously and just how long I have been looking at this issue brother.
Ok, this is clearly not edifying for anyone. It’s obviously just extracting feelings of bitterness and frustration from some. I’ll do some more study on my own regarding the issue. Thanks for everyone that helped contribute. I will check out the teachings and books you guys referenced.
See you all in another thread!
Harvest,
I am sorry you disapprove of my answers. If you knew how difficult it is for me to type what I do you would understand. For me to respond to all your points It would take pages.
I did not trash Tertullian. Turtullian trashed Turtllian. I only quoted him. I am not trying to single handedly change your mind. I thought this was for participation by many.
I am not bitter or frustrated. Yes, I get impatient when you reject the clear definitions of words. Just because Paul says he is an Apostle does not mean that he claims a position as one of the twelve. His remarks about being a “I believe your words was a “super apostle” he was addressing others who were claiming apostleship and misleading the assemblies, not the twelve.
As for smearing the church fathers, if that is what you wish to call it then fine. I will smear false doctrine every time I see it. Whether if be from church fathers, Chris, you or anyone else. Including myself If I allow myself to be led astray.
I hope you find the truth.
David,
I know it’s hard for you to type. I just wish that you used your energy to actually give me some insight on the thesis presented above and not a couple little details which weren’t really pertinent to the questions or verses posted.
Again, if you choose to substitute the word “apostle” for “messenger” by all means go ahead. It isn’t the crux of the point so it really isn’t worth discussing in my opinion.
I must also ask, which false doctrine are you referring to? I’m not presenting anything new or making amendments to any salvational doctrines. We’re discussing Paul and what he said in his epistles, I don’t think that I or anyone else including you built your doctrine around Paul so I’m not sure how you could be lead astray by any of what we’re discussing.
If Paul was a false apostle a mainstream Christian would have to re-evaluate their doctrine… it doesn’t affect you as a Torah observant follower of Messiah. Please correct me if I’m in error.
Actually David,
Don’t worry about answering the post above. If you wish to continue this we can do so when you’re better. Perhaps privately so that no one trips up over the information… I certainly don’t want to be responsible for spreading false teachings, or putting a stumbling block in anyone’s path.
Harvest,
When you basically copy and paste from other peoples sites it is IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to keep up…it gets lost. One issue at a time…
The last two weren’t copied and pasted… they were from the book but I tried to paraphrase and cut out the extraneous stuff…
Are they scripture? Well it all depends on how you define the word scripture. Are they literary works penned on paper? Yup. However, are they “holy” or spoken by Yah? From what I can tell they are not. That doesn’t mean they aren’t good for us.
Sorry I’ve been gone SOOOO long. I moved to house with no internet. It’s been tough.