What parts of “torah application” are the hardest to understand? What might not apply right now?
Realizing that “torah” is simply teaching and instruction…I thought I would post this in an effort to put forward segments of torah that should be applied with wisdom. It is clear that everything is taken in context to the time, place and cultural surroundings. Let’s look at some tough areas that might be considered strange or even antiquated in our society. Perhaps we could even look at ways that distinction between clean and unclean might be better or worse in the world in which we live.
List any examples you can think of throughout the post!
1. Male\Female cleanliness. (clearly many aspects in modern practice are superior to what Abba instructed for the wandering\camping Israelites)
2. Bury the poo outside the camp. Will a porta-potty suffice during our sukkot rehersal?
3. Separating the lean from the fat. (great step toward avoiding a major problem – Type 2 Diabetes). What about hamburger meat?
4. “Rabinically Kosher” kill or get it at Wal-mart & Costco?
As you think of other questions that arise start the comment off with it surrounded by XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX…like below.
Chapter and verse would be helpful here…
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My torah question\concern\thought?
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Miryam,
I am a moderator. The format is according to the will of Scot Dryer. I personally think that the format is fine and that open discussion is fine. The problem I think are things like calls for “repentance” and flat out “condemnation” of others who believe in messiah but disgree over “doubtful disputations”. Unfortunately when I tried to handle this in a civilized manner I was flat hammered by Scot, David, Menorah, and Torahislife. Now this was quite a while ago, but it set the tone for the dialogue in this blog.
Miryam,
My reponsibility is to represent my views and the views of evangelical Christians on this blog. What you dont know is that I have been contacted privately by others who share my views who are thankful for my stand. Many are reading this blog on both sides of the issue. There are thousands who read this blog and will never post anything. Miryam I am being faithful to God by contending for the faith once delivered to the saints. If you are not messianic you are well on yur way. Have a great day my messianic friend.
Miryam,
Don’t get too worried out about people trying to put labels on you (these are manmade conventions and not relevant to anything), ask the Holy Sprit to guide you into truth and He will. God bless!
Well…that is interesting that you have labeled me a Messianic. I’m not sure what that really means to you, or to myself, for that matter. I’m not sure I like the connotations that term brings. I want to ask you some questions, Chris:
- What is a Messianic?
- What is a Christian evangelical?
- How do they differ and how are they the same? Can we really call each others brothers and sisters in the faith?
- How did you come to faith in Jesus Christ?
- How did you decide to become a pastor, or, how were you called to be a pastor? Where are you at in your studies, and what kind of pastor are you?
- Why do you think we need pastors, since some here would challenge the need for your profession?
- What is a pastor in Greek thinking vs. Hebrew thinking (use Strong’s numbers, please)? There is a lot of shepherding and shepherd imagery in the Torah, and it means something throughout all of Scripture, not just in the NT.
- Since you have studied Greek so much, what can you teach a “Messianic” about using the knowledge of it to study the Bible?
- What can you learn here about Hebrew as a study tool and as a paradigm for life? What can you teach us about it?
If we need a new thread for this, I understand. I really want to understand where you are coming from, Chris. Not that I will agree with everything you say, but I have learned that it is very easy to misunderstand and judge someone when you don’t know them. I don’t know you, Chris, but I do know some of the people on this blog and love them dearly. I also see how you might have become frustrated over the past 7 months with the discussions you have been in, but I think Scot said it well when he said you might be feeling like you’re hitting your head against a brick wall here. I know one guy here has a Powerpoint presentation called “Two Camps?” that is really a good way to discuss things. I also know that Scripture, not logic or debate, are what we are supposed to use to discuss things with. The Word of the LORD does not return empty from the purpose for which it was sent. (Where is that Scripture – I can’t find it searching on blueletterbible.org?)
I think hearing from you, Chris, will teach me and many people a lot about what pastors think when they talk to a Torah-observant person. I live in a very Christian town and would like to understand how pastors think and feel. Lest you think I have no experience in dealing with pastors, I was a member of the Lutheran, Baptist, Open Bible, Foursquare, Ted Haggard’s New Life Church and the Dutch Reformed over the course of 30 years. I have met a lot of personalities in the form of a pastor. I have met unsaved, rage-a-holic, administrative, charismatic, controlling and shy pastors – not all in one person. I know of a man in my former church who questioned pastors in the Open Bible Church on whether they know what you are learning here about paganism, and they all said, yes, they’d learned about the pagan roots of Christian holidays in seminary, but they weren’t going to teach their congregations about this because they’d lose their jobs. Many Messianics know about this firsthand from when they were kicked out of congregations, so you can understand how there might be an anti-pastor attitude among them; nothing personal against you, but they are eyewitnesses of the fact. We all know that eyewitnesses are very important in establishing truth about Christ’s death and resurrection, and eyewitnesses shouldn’t be marginalized or minimized for expressing what they’ve seen in this case either. I also think that none of what has been said about pastors being hirelings or thieves was meant directly at you, Chris. From looking over your posts over the past several months, I see this: You started out being excited about being involved in this “experiment” that Scot started here. Gradually, you seem to have become increasingly frustrated and angry, and now you seem to be blurting things out that are not backed by actual Scriptures in a rather “nanny-nanny-boo-boo there-I-said-it” kind of way. You may have shared your evidence early on, but who has the time to go back over everything you’ve said with a fine-toothed comb? So, I think you could have a little more mercy on newcomers and be more forthcoming with the evidence again as issues arise. Since you are a pastor, you will want to shepherd the sheep and be compassionate on them by patiently sharing what you can. You may have accused others of being “the worst example of a Messianic,” but are you being a good example of a Christian? Let’s have a duel of kindness and love, not a duel of petulance and foot-stomping anger here. There are unsaved people coming here, and they need to hear the GOOD NEWS, which we all agree is salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Let’s not turn them off and risk sending them to hell because we haven’t got any Fruit of the Spirit. They will know we are believers in our beloved Messiah by our love, not our wonderful debate skills and ability to win an argument!
Miryam,
I would be happy to have this disussion with you. Maybe someone can start a new thread. I’d ask that you present each question one at a time as well. It is too much to bite off to go for it all at once.
Let me share why I believe this discussion became so divisive. At this point in my journey to win me over you have to convince me I am wrong. Unfortunately Scot and David would rather tell me to repent! Which is silly when I dont see any merit in ther arguments. Now I type REPENT! Because in many ways this has become a he said she said type of forum. If I was treated with respect and people simply contended for faith I’d be happy to have that kind of exchange. Remember, I am a minority. If you dont protect a minority they get lynched And thats where were at. I get beat up frequently. I am only here still to stand for the truth.
Miryam,
The thread you asked for is set up. Begin whenever you like. I may not respond right away but I will respond
Harvest,
Thanks…you are so sweet to encourage me like that. I think it is so excellent that the Master provided people like you on here to give a sweet fragrance of the love of Christ!
Beards? Required? I couldn’t grow a sick beard if I tried…
I wonder about this issue frequently. I think it stems from the fact that ancient pagan cultures in the middle east shaved their faces and heads and wore their hair in particular styles to signify religious affiliation and allegiance.
Because we are told to be separate, I think the commandment was given so that we wouldn’t look like this guy:
http://carbolicsmoke.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Ramses-1.jpg
nor engage in his worldly culture. Like Jeremiah 9 says: “Egypt, Judah, Edom, the sons of Ammon, Moab, and all who dwell in the desert who cut the corners of their hair, for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in heart.†”
Today, there are pagan cultures that shun beards and there are pagan cultures that keep beards as Leviticus describes, so I personally feel conflicted about this command. I’ve kept a beard anyway, but I do wonder whether the reason behind the commandment has faded. The fear of sliding into Torahlessness is keeping the hair on my face!
Lol…Yul Brynner, love the guy.
Yul is the man. He owned that role as Pharoh.
As far as I have understood the commandment regarding forbidding shaving only applies if one is doing it because of mourning for a dead. The context the context
On the discussion topic that the thread was started on Scot list quite a few items I have had questions about and wondered back and forth on myself. How about the below also:
Car breaks down on Friday, can you fix it on Saturday (Shabbot – digging mule out of ditch)? especially when you are a single working parent.
How are widows/orphans treated by the congregation? Mom has to be the male and female role within the home? What role does she prioritize and how does she fit in Torah when child has state custody arrangement for the weekend?
How does a single parent handle a congregation choosing to do Sukkot outside state lines when she is bound by a state custody agreement that will have her arrested for kidnapping her own child if she takes her kid out of school and across state border for Sukkot? What does she do for sukkot? can she just eat her dinner on her back porch and consider it as under the stars?
Since most food is genetically modified, and you do not always know which are anymore and most people do not have the money for a purely organic diet. What then?
The diaspora is a real challange to all of us and my true peace is knowing that it is by grace that we are saved and the walking out the Torah is a practice to show our love and we are just practicing as best we can like children doing what we can with what we have praying for the resources to progress to a better understanding and better level as we mature and as time goes on. Our joy is that our redemption does not rely on how perfect our Torah practice is. How pleased our G-d is by how much we do our best with what we can humbly practicing what we know asking to be taught more through study with his Holy Spirit’s help.
Excellent questions. I’d like to hear opinions on this as well.
lpaytstl You sound caring and loving with lot’s of common sense. Those will carry you far on your way to the Kingdom of Yah. But let me “broadcast” to our little family in Yeshua:
My need for redemption led me to Yeshua. He will not get away from me, I have a hold on him and won’t let go, he can’t shake me off. Have I made mistakes? OH YEAH! PLENTY!
The end of all commandments if love. Most people know how to love at least a little, we just need to learn how to love Yah’s way. Make every decision on love, even if you make mistakes Yah knows your heart. He will lead you and if your decision needs correction he will speak if you will listen.
If your broken down on the side of the road in hot weather and need to fix the car on the Shabbat Yah is more merciful than you are. If you want to show mercy to your family and get the car out of the heat so your child won’t suffer, understand Yah’s mercy far exceeds even yours. He would want you fixed and on your way and probably would even send someone to help you! If he warned you before you left and you ignored him, he might take it up with you privately at a later time, but he would answer any prayer for help. He knows exactly what to do in every situation.
The ox in the ditch is primarily mercy towards animals. That example was used to show it is lawful to “do good†on the Shabbat. Yah is not unforgiving if you need to fix the car. The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. haSatan will try to make sure the ox is always in the ditch, but “greater is he that is in me than he that is in the world” Yah is able to make you stand. But sometimes you need to make a stand. I know plenty of men who stopped working on the Shabbat and paid a heavy price. One man went to military prison when Yah called him to keep Shabbat. Anytime you make a choice to obey the law you agree to pay whatever price. Yeshua is our perfect example and he said “pick up your cross and follow meâ€. Want to be a disciple and avoid all suffering. GOOD LUCK with that! Won’t happen, we all suffer, every last one of us.
He knows when your heart is not right. He can’t be fooled. If you could have taken care of your work during the week and decided to play, or rest or ignore the car needed fixing……thinking he will wink at your sin?? Perhaps for a time, but we all get spankings by Abba at some point in our walk. Best you try to avoid that, I can speak from personal experience, when Abba spanks you due to not paying attention to him it really hurts. But he stays with you, wipes your eyes, sets you back on your feet and sends you back out to play.
Yeshua came not to condemn but to save. We were already condemned; we already were breaking Yah’s Torah. What’s different now is we are called back into his house. He see’s our repentance and runs out to meet us. He makes things possible for us that were impossible and he gives us an earnest of hope for our future and a promise to see us through till we enter in. He knows we will not be keeping the Torah perfectly until he has finished writing it in our insides. Faith, hope and Love. Plan to love in everything you do. If Yah was waiting with a sledge hammer to get me every time I miss the mark I could never make it to Eternal Life. But I found out through many years of following him, he is waiting not to hurt me, but to help me. He loves me more than my own dad who loved me very much.
Live Torah in reverence to the Almighty Elohim knowing he is love and has your best interest at heart. He let his only son go through pure torture he wants to help you so much. He chose you, you did not choose him. Before he even started this creation, he knew you altogether. He is not shocked when you sin, he loved you while you were still a sinner. Perfect love casts out fear. Be obedient, show mercy, show love, visit the sick and house the homeless and clothe the naked and feed the hungry. This is Torah! The rest you will be led to as sure as the sun rises each day.
Remember, Yeshua never says “come into the Kingdom ye who kept my law perfectly†but he did say loosely paraphrased “come into the Kingdom you who it was made for from the beginningâ€. I believe a person is required by Yah to keep the commandments and if we truly love him we will strive with all our might to do so. But anyone who thinks they will never slip is wrong. And when anyone slips, get up and start again. Even a thousand times, get up and try again. Don’t ever give up just because you made a mistake. Cry a little if you must but get up, tell Yah you are sorry and live to fight another day.
A man/woman plans his way that’s for sure, but acknowledge Yah in all your ways and he will order your steps and direct your paths. Keep the High Holy Days in the Spirit of the law even if you can’t keep the letter of the law. And NEVER FORGET, he is your sanctuary in the exile. Never say we have no Temple for we are the Temple of Yah and YHVH is our sanctuary.
For there were many in the congregations that were not sanctified: therefore the Levites had the charge of the killing of the passovers for every one that was not clean, to sanctify them unto the LORD.
For a multitude of the people, even many of Ephraim, and Manasseh, Issachar, and Zebulun, had not cleansed themselves, yet did they eat the passover otherwise than it was written. But Hezekiah prayed for them, saying, THE GOOD LORD PARDON EVERY ONE THAT PREPARETH HIS HEART TO SEEK GOD, THE LORD GOD OF HIS FATHERS, though he be not cleansed according to the purification of the sanctuary.
AND THE LORD HEARKENED TO HEZEKIAH, AND HEALED THE PEOPLE.
Isaiah 8:14
And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
Shalom
‘What does she do for sukkot? can she just eat her dinner on her back porch and consider it as under the stars?’
Oh that sounds lovely, It reminds me of when my sister could not find a kosher baptism and she prayed crying in sorrow standing in the household shower wanting so bad to be baptized. A miracle happened, she recieved the Baptism not by man but by Yah himself. It was a wonderful loving story when she told it.
Set up up a tent in the backyard. That’s what I’ll probably have to do this year, since my wife can’t get time off work and Sukkot begins just as school holidays end (so the kids will be back at school – no travelling away from home for us).
To tell you the truth, I could not sleep well last night. The question about the single mother sitting on the back porch with Yah under the stars eating her meal for Sukkoth touched my heart so deeply I had a burning like fire right at the base of my ribs. (not heartburn lol)
While I lay in bed wide awake my mind reviewed all the kings, priests, prophets, rabbi’s, and people who never pleased Yah. High priests who had access to the temple, kings who lived in Jerusalem, rabbi’s who knew all the laws and people who could travel to the fall assembly and brought tithes and offerings but never touched the heart of Yah.
I thought of the widow and her 2 little pennies and how she gave more than all the rest. It was not that the amount was more, it was that she gave out of her poverty because WHAT WAS IN HER HEART was more. She touched the heart of Yah. I remember the woman who washed Yeshua’s feet with her tears and dried them tenderly with her hair. There is not commandment to do this, but she touched the heart of Yah. I remember the thief on the cross who failed miserably at keeping the torah, but Yah knew his heart and the thief touched Yah’s heart.
I prayed for the transgender person who lived in pain and hurt and confusion asking over and over “what happened to me?†I prayed for the homosexual and lesbian who wonder about having a hope and a future in the Kingdom of Heaven, having broken the Torah. I prayed for the men and women of Yeshua sitting in prison who won’t get out during this lifetime, but will die there unless they are called up sometime soon, but they want to keep the Sukkot, but can’t get out to assemble with us. I prayed for the murderer who lives in guilt and shame knowing they have to live with what they have done, but with YHVH there is forgiveness, they take hold of Yeshua and never let go.
I could go on and on. The path to the Kingdom of YHVH is filled with repentant drunks, addicts, gays and lesbians, liars and cheats, adulterers and haters, molesters, and if there be any other transgressor of the Torah I could list them here. We have all fallen short and no keeping of the Torah by the letter of the law will please our Abba. I tell you the truth, many have had access to Jerusalem and the temple and kept the letter of the law and never found life in Yeshua. Some of those killed Yeshua (don’t tell me it was the Romans, the people said “let his blood be upon us†we not Romans) Yeshua prayed “
Forgive them, they know not what they do†but he also said “Jerusalem, Jerusalem you who stone the prophets send unto you, your house is left to you desolate and you will not see me again until YOU SAY “blessed is he who comes in the name of the lordâ€.
Many have kept the letter of the law and failed to please Yah having no faith. Some few have kept the spirit of Torah in faith and have pleased Abba. I think the single mother who cannot attend Sukkot, but has a burning desire to and eats her meal under the stars on the back porch will please Abba more than many who travel and assemble around the world. There is just something that is BEYOND the keeping of commandments, something of the HEART that only Yah can see, something so AWESOME in it’s simplicity, something beyond measure that really touches Abba’s heart.
So this Feast of Trumpets, when you do your remembering…..remember Zion! Zion is sitting in prison, Zion is hungry, Zion is thirsty, Zion is homeless, Zion is dispersed, hurting, questioning, in pain and struggles and adversities, prisons, sicknesses. COME HOME, REMEMBER YOUR FATHER, turn back to Yah no matter what you have done. Run to him and make peace. Get a hold of Yeshua and never give up, even if you have not overcome all your sin, don’t ever let go of him, don’t be discouraged if you don’t know how to keep Torah perfectly. Don’t be discouraged if you are gay, he knows how to save you. Don’t be discouraged if you are divorced or widowed or fatherless, he knows how to heal you.
The perfect keeping of Torah is summed up in Isaiah 58. Read Isaiah 58 with my words in mind and delight yourselves in Abba, then consider Zion when you read this:
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 7Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Delight yourselves in Abba and our King! Delight yourselves on the back porch, in the garden, in the office cubicle, in the grocery store, at the food bank, in your car, office, home, and garage! Where ever you are this Feast, our King knows you altogether you are not alone and you are not forgotten. And if you feel lonely right now know this. When we enter the kingdom of YHVH in Yeshua I will give you so many kisses and hugs and you will be loved by the entire assembly so much you will finally have what you really wanted all along. Peace, Joy and Righteousness in the Holy Spirit abundant and overflowing.
Brother – this post really spoke to me. I’m encouraged, convicted, stirred to seek Him more and more, and so in awe of His tender mercies.
I love you brother Steven, along with all the rest of my brethren; I love you guys and am praying for you (please pray for me too).
Shalom.
Yes Lisa, I really enjoyed Steven’s comment as well. I could not imagine being able to write what he did in a better way. This is why I enjoy coming here, because I get to experience being part of a body. Steven is able to see and express things that others are not. As for myself I struggle to put my thoughts down in words. I have so much that I want to share, but I am just not sure where to start. For me it is difficult to understand or explain something without using a picture. If I have the time I hope for this winter I will create some illustrations for this purpose. Here I go talking about myself again. My point is to give Steven a thank you for the encouragement.
Also to give Yah a thank you for the many members of the body. One part holds the hammer to do work, the other part kisses the thumb that just got hit by the hammer. One part has feet to walk forward, another rubs the toe that just found a coffee table in the dark. One part takes in food, another part digests it, the blood (the spirit) brings the food to all the body. This body even has less honorable members, which get rid of poisons and toxic waste from the body. Sometimes these are not the most popular parts, but they are absolutely necessary.
Thank you Abba for all the brothers and sisters in the body of Messiah. Thanks Steven for a great comment!
It just occurred to me I could be a sweat gland……or worse….
I love you all so much. I don’t care if anyone thinks I’m being ‘mushy’ or corny. I just love you all so much.
In that case we must bestow MORE abundant honor on you.
1Co 12:23
One time I asked Abba, “what part of the body am I?” thinking of spiritual gifts. I’m pretty sure I heard back “the little toe”. I looked down at my funny little toe and wiggled it around and I thought about that for a while but finally had to ask. “what do you mean I’m the little toe”.
What I believe I heard back was “not really nessasary but no one wants to cut it off”.
Do you think he was trying to be funny?
Toes bring balance to the body. Ever seen someone who has lost a toe trying to learn to walk (let alone run) again?
HAHA! That is great!
Greg and Steven
LOLOL
Hey, sweat glands keep us cool and refreshed! So technically you would be like a cool drink of water to the “body” on a hot day. Keep in mind, it’s only the bacteria on the outside of the body that makes the sweat smelly… not the sweat itself.
Without sweat glands we’d probably all be dead… or at least I would down here in South Florida!
Thank you for cracking my heart. I read what you wrote and was both uplifted and corrected. Praise Yah, He is so Good. I hunger for His and this fellowship, I want to submit to His word and rise above and beyond into His Spirit of Truth. I’m grateful for the Hope. Blessings to you all.
Steven,
Wow! So needed this morning. Thank you for sharing this. Brought tears to my eyes, conviction of my heart, and hope for today. With all that is going on, I have found myself in the “hunker down” and “protective mode” of myself and my immediate family, leaving little to no “energy” and time for others. YAH forgive me! I will REMEMBER this is not about me, but about US…the body..the dispersed seed of Abraham. May all of my brothers and sisters be blessed with peace, love, health, wisdom and understanding this Shabbat and throughout this blessed season of remembrance, repentance, and fellowship. Much love and prayers as always.
Heather
Thank you for your blessing and may Yah bless you and your family!