WHAT DOES SCRIPTURE SAY ABOUT LOVE AND TORAH?
How does love fulfill the commandments? Â Does it mean that undescript love takes the place of the commandments? Â Or, does it mean that the commandments are love???
Rom. 13:10 Â Love works no ill toward his neighbor (it does no wrong, no torahless actions against his neighbor): Â Therefore, LOVE IS THE FULFILLING OF TORAH. Â (If you are loving your neighbor you are not doing Torahless actions against him…how do I know this? Â Read Rom 13:9…For this, (because of love to your neighbor) you shall not commit adultery, you shall not kill, shall not steal, shall not bear false witness, shall not covet AND IF THERE BE OTHER COMMANDS (and we know there are) they are comprehended (understood without speaking them again) in this (commandment) love your neighbor as yourself.
Look at the example of how Messiah showed His love to us…
Eph. 5:2 Walk in love as Messiah has loved us as He gave himself as an offering and sacrifice to God as a sweet smelling savour. Â (Sacrifice and offering are works of Torah. Â Messiah’s works of Torah are love to his brother…right? Â Messiah is showing us that doing the Torah WAS THE EXAMPLE OF LOVE TO HIS BROTHER. Â Doing deeds of Torah is showing love to the Father and to the bretheran. Â Doing Torah by faith in Messiah is not vain, Torah is love that produces the fruit of eternal life because of faith!)
Phil 2:8 Â Being found in fashion as a man (Messiah being sent to earth in the form of a man) Messiah did humble himself (as a man) and became obedient to death, even to the death of the cross (death on the cross is sacrifice and offering…deeds of Torah that He did because of His love and the Father’s love toward us. Â Messiah shows the example of obedience. Â Obedience is to do the works of Torah in our bodies as Messiah did. Â He offered complete obedience or submission to the Father’s will all the way to the point of death for His bretheran. Â REMEMBER, THE SCRIPTURE SAYS OBEDIENCE IS BETTER THAN SACRIFICE! Â Adam is our first example of disobedience to YHWH’s word and we see what comes from that…the penalty of death. Â Messiah shows what comes from keeping YHWH’s instructions…LIFE! Â YHWH has given us His word because it is life to us. Â Messiah demonstrates to us that doing YHWH’s word is the ULTIMATE LOVE…no greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother!!! Â The works of Torah are by design, love.)
1John 2:5 Â Whoever keeps his word (Torah, which is Messiah before he came as a man) In him is the love of YHWH perfected. Â This is how we know that we are in Him. (In YHWH) Â Is this message a “new testament” message that did not exist prior to Messiah being sent as a man or was this always what Torah taught us? Â Let’s look as what else the scripture has to say…
1John 3:11 Â This is the message FROM THE BEGINNING, that you love one an other.
Now you ask about faith because we know it is true that faith is the “buzz word” for those who believe there is a separation between new and old testaments. Â Let’s look at this…
Gal. 5:6 Â In Messiah Yahushua, neither circumcision avails anything OR uncircumcision, but faith which (does) works by love. Â (See James 2:20 …faith without works is dead…AND James 2:24…you see that BY WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED AND NOT BY FAITH ONLY. Â (By What kind of works? Â Arbitrary works, undefined works? Â Did Messiah just go off and do willy nilly stuff? Â No! Â He did the works of Torah…love fulfills Torah! Â If you honor your heavenly Father, you will seek to do His will. Â Not the sacrifice stuff, that is what Messiah came to do, once for all. Â Messiah did the parts of Torah that you and I could not do. Â He alone was sinless so that His blood could cover our sin. Â The “new testament” says that Messiah came because of our sin which needed covering from before the face of a righteous Father. Â But we can still do the good works of Torah also as we keep the commandments as our Father gave them.)
In the example above you see that WITHOUT FAITH in YHWH and Messiah, doing works of Torah or not doing works of Torah are fruitless. Â But, if you add faith to the works, this produces the fruit of eternal life. Â The fruit of the word of Eloheim is eternal. Â Messiah in written form shows us “the way” and Messiah in the form of man covers us when we fail “the way”. Â Messiah is everything we need, we need nothing apart from Him (eat the whole lamb). Â In YHWH’s perfect plan of provision for us, He has made Messiah, from the beginning, ALL we need.
I leave you with Eph. 3:17 Â (the hope) that Messiah (the spirit of the word/Torah Messiah) may dwell in your hearts by faith (because you believe that YHWH’s word is true) that you who are rooted in love (remember what is the example of love??) Â may understand the depth with all the saints and to understand (what is) the love of Messiah (so that you too may fulfill it in your bodies).
That is the desire of our Heavenly Father, that we may come to understand the meaning and the depth of His love toward us and how He desires us to honor Him as a Father which is the first commandment with promise, by love for Him and faith that He is true, that our days might be long in the (promised) land!
May our understanding be lighted by the word of truth
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Comments
Duncan,
I have been stuying the book of Revelation and the church is not the Harlot, it is a “city”. As a result it must be Rome. I am not part of the Roman Church. Sorry, but you are incorrect and your statement was made in error. Please retract your false statement.
Chris, The point is this: The Church = Israel of YHWH, Agreed.
Chris, you, through grace and by faith in Jesus the Anointed One, are now Israel. Now LISTEN Don’t go and do the traditions of man that judaism added too or took away from the Word. Pure and Simple
Just like you don’t need to do the traditions of man that christianity added too or took away FROM THE WORD.
And if you have to call yourself Baptist fine, it’s the heart and the actions that Abba is revealing His Son through.
Shalomey
Duncan,
I agree about the Israel of God being the church but I disagree about what the term “Israel of God” actually means. There are two types of branches, Jew and Gentile.
OH Duncan…..shalomey back at ya bro!
Chris,
Even though your church is not a “card carrying” member of the Catholic Church you still witness to her authority over you because she changed times and laws and you agree that she has power to do this through your WILLFUL observation of these changes. Unfortunately, the reformers never got far enough away from the Catholic church…
“If every Sunday is to be observed joyfully by the Christians on account of the resurrection, then every Sabbath on account of the burial is to be regarded in execration of the Jews (exsecratione Judaeorum). In fact all the disciples of the Lord had a lamentation on the Sabbath, bewailing the buried Lord, and gladness prevailed for the exulting Jews. But sadness reigned for the fasting apostles. In like manner we are sad with the saddened by the burial of the Lord, if we want to rejoice with them in the day of the Lord’s resurrection. In fact, it is not proper to observe [the sabbath], because of Jewish customs, the consumption of food (destructiones ciborum) and the ceremonies of the Jews”85 – Pope Sylvester (A.D. 314-335).
and…
“Sunday is the day on which the paschal mystery is celebrated in light of the apostolic tradition and is to be observed as the foremost holy day of obligation in the universal Church.”110
if this doesn’t shake your spirit then nothing will…
Q. How prove you that the Church hath power to command feasts and holidays?
A. By the very act of changing the sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of; and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same Church.
Q. How prove you that?
A. Because by keeping Sunday, they acknowledge the Church’s power to ordain feasts, and to command them under sin; and by not keeping the rest by her commanded, they again deny, in fact, the same power.
Source: The Douay Catechism
Need more?
Q. Why had God chosen one day in seven for us to render him our homage?
A. 1st, to establish order and unity in our worship; 2nd, to remind us of the obligation to worship him; 3d, to preserve exterior worship. Among Christians this day is Sunday.
Q. Why Sunday?
A. For very wise reasons; 1st, to show that all the Jewish ceremonies are abolished; 2d, to honor the greatest mysteries of religion; for the Sunday corresponds to the first day of the world, to the day of the resurrection of our Lord, and to the day of the descent of the Holy Ghost on the apostles.
Source: Catechism of Perseverance
Q. Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her;—she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.
Source: Doctrinal Catechism
AND FINALLY (unless you need more proof…)
“Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change was her act. It could not have been otherwise, as none in those days would have dreamed of doing any thing in matters spiritual and religious without her, and the act is a MARK of her ecclesiastical power and authority in religious matters.
Yours respectfully,
WILLIAM REWDAY, Sec. for the Cardinal
Chris you’re walking in dangerous territory brother. I’m being serious… it’s not about being right anymore, it’s about who you’re submitting your spirit to as an Authority, this is a very serious matter, and I praise Yeshua that you are here exploring this truth with us. Be blessed man!
Harvest,
The above quotes do not bother me because Proestants, Baptists especially do not worship on the days we do for any of the reasons posted. We flatly reject Romes authority in every way. And in fact it is quite insulting that you would suggest that we are just following Rome and that we don’t have our own convictions based upon our own understanding of truth. You just quoted sources from Rome who want to point out the sin of protestantism for leaving the RCC, how does that have any bearing or credibility when speaking of my faith group? You don’t see how biased those sources are? This is a very poorly thought out argument. The RCC is despised by most protestants especially Baptists. Our rule of faith and practice is the scripture using the historical-grammatical method of interpretation.
OH, I get it now. It is not that the churches are following the sin of Rome. They have made it their own sin. Now, they do it in their own right. That’s much better. Hmmmmm.
David,
It has nothing to do with Rome but rather with our own scriptural convictions. If I believed as you did about sabbath I’d be a Seventh Day Adventist or something. Yes it is better because we are not sinning, we are celebrating the resurrection of our master every week! We have made a distinction between ourselves and Judaism for good reason. We believe in Christ the messiah we are not trappped in the false system of Judaism.
Chris,
The point I was trying to show you is that you say you deny her authority but you do AGREE on a Spiritual level with her because you also believe that she had authority to change a command given directly from God. If you disagreed you’d assemble on the Sabbath and keep it Holy… but you don’t (from what I’ve gathered from your posts)
It’s not as far fetched as you’re making it seem… you’re the one that’s fighting along side her and against the commandments of the Father.
Harvest,
I believe that sabbath was fulfilled in Christ. Jesus is our sabbath Rest. I laid out my case in a previous thread on Hebrews 4. No one really tackled my exegesis they just attacked me and my position. My exegesis was so sound it couldnt really be overcome. This is no exaggeration. Hebrews 4 dstroys the sabbatarian argument and it even uses some of their favorite arguments against them. Sorry Harvest but if you really want he truth you will have to dig some more. Sabbath is Christ, He is our rest. True Rest is entering the presence of the Father and through Christ we enter His presence and have access to it every day making every day a day of “His rest”!
Your exegesis was faulty. I’ve just posted an article to that thread that points out why.
here is a link to the article Rodney posted.
http://profoundprophecy.com/?p=467#comment-26769
You call Him your Master but you don’t do what he says?! Hmmm, I’m confused I guess…
It sounds like by your interpretation of the Law that you could have sex with another man’s wife as long as you you’re thinking about your wife while you do it… or that you can literally murder someone that angers you as long as you don’t speak badly about them…
Can you explain why all the commands have a spiritual and physical implication (obviously) except for the Sabbath command? I’d love to hear your thoughts on this.
Harvest,
I dont really want to unpack an argument I already made in great detail. I will just point out some highlights. The ten Commandments are modeled after a suzerian covenant common in day of Moses. In the middle of the covenant was a “sign” the sign in the Mosaic covenant is the 4th command. This is actually supported by scripture. The sign of the covenant was done away with when the covenant was replaced by the New covenant so the sabbath commandment is no longer binding because it was the sign of a covenant that has been replaced by a superior covnant based upon better promises (see Hebrews 7 and 8). There was one other sign of the Mosaic covenant and that was circumcision which was also became unecccessary when the New covenant came into effect. At any rate you should look at the entire argument. I’ll try and find it for you and post it.
Sounds to me like you’re the one that needs to rely on external sources for your interpretations of Scripture. WIthout learned men like you around that know these things, the rest of us would be left in the dark! Imagine what kind of a world we would live in without having scholars to pick apart the Word of God for us?
So you’re telling me with absolutely no Scripture that the Sabbath command was done away with… but yet ALL others remain? I’ll anxiously await your scriptural reference for that! I gotta say at least the Catholic Church admits that there is no scriptural evidence for doing away with this command!
Harvest,
Here is the thread http://profoundprophecy.com/?p=467#comments unfortuately it looks like my original post was edited and much of my argument was removed. You can look through the 391 comments and deduce my argument if you like. I am frustrated that my orginal argument was erased by an admin. But I guess thats what you get when you are on a board with religious people who reject your views. I stand alone as a persecuted minority. Whatever.
My heart is breaking here! Tears are streaming down onto my keyboard.
THERE IS NO VERSE, NO CHAPTER, NO BOOK ANYWHERE IN ALL OF SCRIPTURE THAT TEACHES OR SAYS IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM THAT SHABBAT HAS BEEN DONE AWAY WITH!
If your argument was edited, which I seriously doubt, then just be a man and repost it. Where does it say that Sabbath was done away with?
That old Hebrews 4 argument that Jesus is now our Sabbath is another fine example of some eisegesis.
David,
It is not eisigesis. I did a careful examination of the sabbath, and yes it was absolutely edited. I went back and I could not find it. I worked hard n putting it together and I will never forget how it was ignored by all of you. I dont have time to do it over again. And even if I did none here would listen. I doubt it is a profitable use of my time. I made my case and I made it well. Cry on your keyboard David, the perversion of Paul by all of you has caused me many tears.
How can a person be trapped in something he has never been in? i.e. Judaism?
“Yes it is better because we are not sinning.”
“Sin is the transgression of Torah.” Read 1st John Chris.
If you are violating Torah you are sinning.
Also, 1st John says, “he who says he has no sin is a liar and the truth is not in him.”
Do you still say, “we are not sinning?”
David,
The CJB is a perversion in the above quotation. The Greek text does not say “Torah”. Nice try. Dishonest, but nice!
Wait Chris,
There is one Body, not two.
Unless you want to fathers. <——- not good !
Chris,
Once again you show your ignorance or dishonesty. I don’t know which but you do. I am not going to waste my time telling a Greek scholar like yourself how to trace the etymology of the word Law. If you don’t know, I’m sure some Baptist wizard at your theological cemetery will tell you.
David,
I am simply in awe of how the love of Yeshua Mashiach moves through you! I am sure all on this blog are truly impressed with your maturity in YHWH!!! WOW!
typo again oops
to = two
My answer to you Chris can be found on the Galatians thread.
Chris, How’s the Pastor interview going?
Did you see my reply about one Body of the Anointed One ?
Pastor
I’ll check it out Chris. Thanks for posting.
What argument was edited? I doubt it was edited as well. Post it again.
In response to Chris’s assertions re Sabbath/Shabbat:
Isa 56:1-12 Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
(lit. …my Yeshua is near to come…)
(2) Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. (3) Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
(stranger = foreigner)
(4) For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; (5) Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. (6) Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; (7) Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. (8) The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.
Now see what he says to the religious leaders who have turned away from His ways…
(9) All ye beasts of the field, come to devour, yea, all ye beasts in the forest. (10) His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber. (11) Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter. (12) Come ye, say they, I will fetch wine, and we will fill ourselves with strong drink; and to morrow shall be as this day, and much more abundant.
Isaiah is clearly talking about the last days before the regathering of exiled Israel from the nations and the reconciliation between Israel and Judah. Those who receive the greatest blessing are those who keep his Sabbath Holy.
The NET puts it this way:
Isa 56:1 ​​​​​​​This is what the LORD says, “Promote justice! Do what is right! For I am ready to deliver you; I am ready to vindicate you openly.
2 ​​​​​​​The people who do this will be blessed, the people who commit themselves to obedience, who observe the Sabbath and do not defile it, who refrain from doing anything that is wrong.
3 ​​​​​​​No foreigner who becomes a follower of the LORD should say, ‘The LORD will certainly exclude me from his people.’ The eunuch should not say, ‘Look, I am like a dried-up tree.’â€
4 ​​​​​​​For this is what the LORD says: “For the eunuchs who observe my Sabbaths and choose what pleases me and are faithful to my covenant,
5 ​​​​​​​I will set up within my temple and my walls a monument that will be better than sons and daughters. I will set up a permanent monument for them that will remain.
6 ​​​​​​​As for foreigners who become followers of the LORD and serve him, who love the name of the LORD and want to be his servants – all who observe the Sabbath and do not defile it, and who are faithful to my covenant –
7 ​​​​​​​I will bring them to my holy mountain; I will make them happy in the temple where people pray to me. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar, for my temple will be known as a temple where all nations may pray.â€
8 ​​​​​​​The sovereign LORD says this, the one who gathers the dispersed of Israel: “I will still gather them up.â€
9 ​​​​​​​All you wild animals in the fields, come and devour, all you wild animals in the forest!
10 ​​​​​​​All their watchmen are blind, they are unaware. All of them are like mute dogs, unable to bark. They pant, lie down, and love to snooze.
11 ​​​​​​​The dogs have big appetites; they are never full. They are shepherds who have no understanding; they all go their own way, each one looking for monetary gain.
12 ​​​​​​​Each one says, ‘Come on, I’ll get some wine! Let’s guzzle some beer! Tomorrow will be just like today! We’ll have everything we want!’
I know I’m a little behind the times, but I just read this gem from Chris, “Thanks observer so while the law may be perfect it in itself could not accomplish the redemption of man…”
Of course, the Law was never intended to redeem man – that was the job of the redeemer.
“The law was inadequate to save.”
It was never intended to save. How many times do we have to say it before it penetrates? THE LAW NEVER WAS, ISN’T AND NEVER WILL BE ABOUT SALVATION.
“The Law is the perfect standard of righteousness…”
True.
“…but it is impossible to keep…”
False – the scriptures and historical record don’t agree with you on this point.
“…and was given to point to Christ and reveal our sinfulness.”
Correct. See how mixing a little leaven in leavens the whole lump? The equation is simple: truth + lie = lie, and that leads you into error.
” Every GOOD gift and every PERFECT gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of Lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Of His own will fathered He us with the WORD OF TRUTH, that we should be a kind of first-fruits of His creatures.”
“He Fathered us with the Word of truth.” Wow, that is getting stronger and stronger as I’m reading, speaking and letting the life of that truth resonate to my whole life.
Chris, Are you sure you((or anyone); or anyone influenced by you)) can let the traditions of men be equal to The Word of truth?
BTW, It is Jude who already says what contending for the faith ONCE delivered to the saints is.