An Interview With a Baptist Pastor (Requested by Miryam)
This is a thread requested by Miryam. Please keep this post kind and civilzed even if you disagree with the views of the Pastor during the exchange here.
Have fun 
18 January 2010
461 Comments
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Scot,
You touched on a subject of interest for me, the Shriner/Mason/Muslim ties and thier higher power. I have made this connection on my own from a couple of strange experiances in my life. Could you please post on this matter, it is of great importance, as some of our brothers, and sisters are treading where they should not.
Mark,
Yeah, it’s crazy man!
I also got that article about Korban Pesach in an email recently and wanted to post it on here.
I kind of miss having Chris here. I am missing the discussions that Chris and his opposing views bring up. Do you realize that his being here probably grew this blog more than anything else? Also, does this mean we can’t interview him anymore? In case he comes in here again, here’s another question:
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Chris,
After you became a believer in Jesus, how were you
discipled, how long and by whom?
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Miryam,
I dont see any problem with answering your question.
I was discipled by a man who had shared many of the struggles I had before coming to Christ. He poured himself into me in a small group men’s study and then eventually when I needed help getting on my feet he helped me by allowing me to move into his home with his family. This helped me get sober and away from destructive influences. My pastor also began investing in me immediately and began taking me with him every week to do evangelistic outreach to the poor in the inner city. Then I spent 3 months in Mexico on a Mission that changed my life. The pastor of the Mexican church played a big role in my early development as well. The discipleship process outlined here took roughly 2 years. When I returned from mexico I started my theological training at a local Bible Institute.
Scot,
how was the conference brother? I wish I could have attended. I’m looking forward to purchasing the DVD. I heard from Levite83 that you made some good jokes. lol.
On a side note:
I’m reading through Genesis chapter 1-11 to find the end in the beginning for those who have heard Brad Scott’s teachings. I keep running across verses like “let US make man in OUR image…” or “Let US confuse their languages…” It seems really similar to sumarian writings… (Not that i’m saying the Bible is Sumarian). I’m just wondering if the translators did something wrong to fit a “trinity” doctrine in there.
The reason I ask is because the Hebrew word for “us” or “we” is Anachnu. If i’m wrong please correct me. But I don’t see the word “anachnu” in the Hebrew.
reading words like “US” makes it seem like the Bible is based on poly-theism. Or alien-ism… lol
If I may speak off topic a little,
Some have requested themes for opening new threads for discussion that have not been opened. We don’t want you to be missed. This forum is for all our questions.
If you have suggested a thread topic that has not been opened, please post it again and I will open a thread for you.
Sorry for all who have been missed.
David
Net,
2 days ago I was wondering the SAME thing! I never mentioned it to you though!
*awaiting replies
Levite83,
Then maybe that is confirmation that this topic of “trinity” and “sumarianism” should be discussed in further details.
Also, the Hebrew word for “Elohim” means “god(s)” [plural]… it sounds really awkward that the Hebrew would say “in the beginning, gods created the heavens and the earth…” uh… awkward. Either i’m miss-reading the Hebrew or something is strange.
Just to make it clear, I do NOT believe in polytheism. I like to ask questions but that doesn’t mean I am believing in the things I’m asking. So for those who don’t know me, just wanted to clear that up.
Also, a lot of the new agers that follow the sumarian teachings claim that the sumarian tablets came FIRST then the bible next. And that there are several creation accounts written down in various forms.
However, the Torah proves true all the way with archeological and scientific evidence. The only thing is, I really want to know how to answer a sumarian follower if he or she ever questioned Scripture. Like Paul said “Be all things to all men”. Perhaps I should do a deep study on this subject. Hmmm…
Netzari, You said,
Also, a lot of the new agers that follow the sumarian teachings claim that the sumarian tablets came FIRST then the bible next. And that there are several creation accounts written down in various forms.
There is a very simple explanation for this. Even if the sumarian texts or stories are older, this means nothing at all. Why?
Because the first five books of Scripture written by Moses was given to him on Mount Sinai by YHVH. That means the story was being told later than the events actually happened.
As an example, My great grandfather could tell me stories of the civil war but that doesn’t mean the civil war happened at the time the story was being given to me. It happened earlier.
So, YHVH was in effect saying to Moses, and this is my imagination to prove a point. “Moses, set down on that rock and let me tell you how all this came to be.” Moses had no memory going back to creation and what stories may have been passed down would not be accurate enough for YHVH to allow Moses to write them down as being accurate. It is impossible for the sumarian events to have happened before the creation event. They are confusing the age of texts with the age of reality.
David,
thanks for your examples. However my main question was about the apparent polytheistic “hint” in the Genesis 1:1. “In the beginning Elohim (gods [plural]) created the heavens and the earth.” I’m having trouble with the Hebrew. Elohim means “gods” not “God” singular. And passages that say “Let US make man in OUR image” is confusing. Correct me if i’m wrong, but “Us” and “We” is “Anachnu” in Hebrew. But I don’t see that word in there. Could this be a miss-translations to prove a trinity doctrine? Who was YHWH talking to when He said “let US make man…” who is the “us”?
I’m asking all this from the point of an outsider who might question the Faith of Messiah and search for answers. I want to have a good answer for that person. I’m still studying this issue though. Lots of stuff to learn. I hope others will post their thoughts as well. =)
Netzari87,
There’s no polytheistic hint, this is an older thread that talks about “trinity”, elohim, etc.
http://profoundprophecy.com/?p=470
wow…sorry for all the typos above..
Also, I believe the creation account was passed down from Adam to Noah to Abraham and so on. Since Moses grew up egyptian YHWH had to tell it to him. I believe the Israelites knew about it.
Netzari,
The Hebrew there is “na’aseh (YOU feminine make) adam (man) v’tsal’meynu (in OUR image) kid’muteynu (as OUR likeness).” I think that is why it is translated as “Let US” – they draw it from the part about “OUR image” and “OUR likeness” in order to decide how to translate “na’aseh” as they do. The Hebrew is much simpler and less wordy than the English – “you make man in our image as our likeness.”
Netzari,
First, we shouldn’t stop at the Word “Eloheim” because what it actually says is “Eloheim Aleph Tav.
Secondly, being plural does not necessarily mean polytheistic. YHVH is plural in many ways. The Word “Eloheim” actually means “Powers.” Plural Powers does not necessarily mean Plural personalities, plural persons etc.
As I was saying to Larry, the three most common revelations of YHVH are as YHVH ABBA, YHVH/Yeshua and Ruach HaKodesh. But He is not limited to those three relvelations. We do not need to be trinitarians to believe in the plurality of Echad YHVH. He is the Spirit that moved over the face of the waters. He was the Captain of the Armies of YHVH that appeared to Yehoshua, He was the Angel that appeared at the Tent of Avraham Avinu. He was the Voice in the Burning Bush, He was the Dove who descended on to Yeshua, He was the Pillar of Fire and Pillar of Cloud and the One who Speaks from the Mercy Seat of the Ark of the Covenant. These are all “Powers.” all “Eloheim.”
You may believe what you wish about how the creation story was passed down, but it was YHVH who told Moses to write down what He had to say on the Mountain. The Five Books of Moses are perfect. That can only come from the Mouth of YHVH speaking it to Moshe as He wrote it down as commanded. None of it was hearsay. It was the clean pure water from the top of the Mountain, not the dregs at the bottom that had come down through 3000 years of telling it over and over and over and over and over and over and over. get the picture?
After all, it was YHVH’s own finger that wrote in the Stone Tablets. What do you think Moshe was doing on that mountain for 40 days? It certainly wasn’t memorizing the oral law that the Rabbi’s now call Talmud.
Netzari,
So, does that make more questions for you about the Hebrew? It looks like YHVH is telling the Spirit (feminine part of Himself) to make man for the YHVH US. I may be wrong (ask Brad Scott or someone like that), and I’m not saying anything specifically about sumerianism or any doctrine – just observing the Hebrew as I understand it.
miryam51,
The Hebrew word for spirit/breath is feminine, that doesn’t mean that Abba has a “feminine part”. The Ruach is not a “manifestation” of Abba, but it’s His Spirit, God is Spirit (“IT” is not entirely correct, because it’s neuter gender in English, Hebrew has no neuter, correct would be she (the spirit/breath) is His Spirit, again, it’s just the gender of the word that’s feminine in Hebrew, not an actual “feminine part” of Abba). In fact in other languages like Romanian “breath” is also feminine, but I would never think that the breath/spirit is a female.
Netzari
If you want more info on Genesis 1:1 Heres a link to a video on the subject by Jeff benner from the ancient hebrew research center.
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=ancienthebreworg#g/c/A590BDAD098AE473
He breaks this verse down word for word. Hope this helps
Manifest=readily perceived by the eye or the understanding; evident, to make clear or evident to the eye or the understanding.
A manifestation of the Ruach Eloheim, is to make clear or evident to the understanding of man, the Ruach which is the Spirit of YHVH.
In this sense, the manifestation of the Spirit of YHVH is YHVH making Himself known to man through His Spiritual Presence.
David,
You are not you, you are a manifestation of you, come on bro, j/k
Mark,
Our presentation is going to change some into two parts…
1. Scripture and INTERACTIVE maps
2. Slideshow\Pictures…
It will be delivered in two sections. I have taught that 200 times in public and that was one of the more frustrating because of the time constraints.
The “Let US make Man in OUR image” will be the part that is used to usher in the the fallen ones.
Yes, the sumerian accounts came LONG BEFORE Moshe. Churchmen don’t want to talk about the MULTIPLE “sons of elohim” that were BEFORE the earth was made, mentioned by Iyov\Job. It is crazy, but we would rather stick our head in the sand and ignore established fact. I will be doing a teaching on this soon. It will be more of a bulleted format.
Mark,
The presentation will be getting LONGER and more robust which will mean that it will have to be broken apart.
Hey, Tony, welcome back, your middle name is Anthony, isn’t it? Love that name, sounds Italian. If I only knew about the online live cast of the conference, I would’ve watched it, darnit.
How did you find out my middle name? That is funny.
about 2 years ago from good ole’ google, almost a Hebrew word play, ha, plus I had the confirmation because you often sign your videos Scot A Dryer
Larry,
My point was that some make way to much out of the word manifest. The definition I gave was straight out of websters. Perhaps you have a better source for the meaning of the word.
Does not the Father make Himself known to you by His Spirit and His Word? He does me! I believe that is what Messiah meant when He said, “the counselor whom I will send to you will take of mine and show it to you.” paraphrase. I know you see this. You just loooooooovvve to argue with David.
Not at all David, nothing personal, just like in the past, this is ALL for the readers of the blog
Netzari, just a quick note re Elohim. Plurals in Hebrew can be quantitative or qualitative, so Elohim could be read “gods” or it could be read, “Mighty God”.
BTW, the Shema is interesting too because it reads, “Shema, Yisrael, Adonai Eloheinu, Adonai Echad”.
Adonai = masculine gender, plural.
Eloheinu = masculine gender, plural.
So it could literally read, “…the Lords our Gods, the Lords are One”. I’m not suggesting that is how it should be read, because of the reason given above, but the scriptures do seem to suggest that God has parts. Not a trinity a-la the RCC doctrine, but nevertheless God never refers to himself in a pure singular form.
Like in Genesis after the fall when God literally says, “Man has become like one part of us“.
Here’s another one for David, Larry et al to chew over; the first 2000 years or so of man’s history as recorded in the scriptures, it’s all about the fathers (Adam through to Jacob). For the next 2000 years until Messiah its all about the sons (the twelve tribes represented by the “sons of Jacob”). The last 2000 years since the Feast of Pentecost in Acts 2 it has been about the Ruach HaKodesh. That leaves us with the Messianic age when Messiah will rule the nations with a rod of iron and “the Word of the Lord will go forth from Jerusalem”.
No, I’m not a trinitarian any more either but the scripture is full of references to God having parts yet being Echad – One.
Food for though, perhaps…
Can whoever started this dialogue start a post pertaining to it, solely?
I can bring some clarity to what to expect from the evolutionist\sumerian worldview.
“Hi, my name is Scot and I am a trinitarian”
Everybody says, “Hi Scot”
Scot <————NOT a trinitarian.
Scot,
I’d appreciate more info on that as well. It was Net who started the dialogue, someone may want to help him out with starting a post solely to the topic.
I know someone who I used to be close friends with, he moved away and became a new ager, using mushrooms and dmt to have outterbody experiences… *cough* fake ones that is.. lol trippin. Anyways, one of his main punchlines to believers a couple years ago was “the sumerian tablets were way before the Jews”.
needless to say, its good to be ready for these types of people. I’m sure there will be alot more of them coming.
I agree Levite,
I would love to have a separate topic that incorporates both the “echad” nature of YHWH and the Sumerian tablets, and how that will tie in with what is soon to come. Someone start it up!
Scot,
Did y’all meet the Coopers (GLC) while at the meetings. Al mentioned on the broadcast a couple of nights ago that they may air some of the meetings. That would be great!
BTW I came across some S. A. Dryer video teachings on YT, pre- W-beard, (nice). It is neat to hear the message from back then and see how the pieces are falling together now. The Word is sure.
I like the retro channel Sooz.
Rodney,
The shema doesn’t read “Adonai”. That was inserted by Rabbinical Jews. I’m actually learning to memorize how to write the Shema in Hebrew. It reads “Shema Yisrael, (YHWH) Eloheynu, (YHWH) Echad.” The word “Adonai” isn’t found in the Hebrew Text. But rather “Yod Hey Vav Hey”. I get your point though Rodney. Thanks!
David,
I am in no way saying that the Torah given at sinai is the lesser revelation from YHWH passed down for thousands of years from Adam. I’m just saying that what YHWH told moses (which is perfect) was already known by adam. Since adam was the first created man from YHWH. Adam would have known all things about YHWH and walked in Torah perfectly without sin (before the fall). That is what I believe. And It makes logical sense. How else would the decsendents of Adam (abel, noah, abraham, etc…) know what was clean and unclean, and how to offer correct sacrifices? I find it intresteing that the first sacrifice was made by YHWH when He gave Adam and Chavah (eve) animal skins to wear. And the LAST sacrifice was also made by Him (Yahshua). He is the First and Last =)
In the beginning, YHWH didn’t need to write down His Laws. It was a given to adam. Of course, I have to wonder, if adam wasn’t circumcised, then why did YHWH tell Abraham to do so? But this is another topic.
I want to know more about the sumarian accounts. And how to refute the “let US make man in OUR image”.
Larry,
Just having fun.
I know it isn’t personal.
Rodney touched on what I have been trying to say when he used the word, “Parts” regarding what I was using the word “manifestations” to describe. Does this word suit you better Larry?
It is Scriptural. Paul said the same about the Body of Messiah. It has many parts but is One Body. Sometimes it takes us older folks a little longer to search our data bases for the right program.
BTW Larry, admit it, you do lovvvvvvvvvveeeee to argue with David.
David said “Rodney touched on what I have been trying to say when he used the word, “Parts†regarding what I was using the word “manifestations†to describe. Does this word suit you better Larry?”
Nope, not scriptural. The way I see it, you and Rodney believe in a version of “trinity” (or “multinity”) and it’s funny that you both say “NOOO, I’m not trinitarian”
I see it as simply trying to explain words and concepts like elohim, echad, etc. coming from a Christian background. Not everything Christian is bad, but I believe that certain things are really bad and we have to completely forget them and start over fresh, from the Tanakh, Hebrew mindset, interlinear, mechanical translations (learning Hebrew is best), etc. And THEN, we will see these perfectly fit with the words of our Mashiach, Sha’ul, etc.
Shalom y’all
Levite83,
I agree. Thanks buddy!
Scot,
you said:
“The “Let US make Man in OUR image†will be the part that is used to usher in the the fallen ones. ”
I would be blessed brother if you could sometime expound on this quote. I’m very intrested.
miryam51 and larry,
thanks so much for your posts as well! It helped.
miryam51,
I can’t think of the word, but it is something that narrorators do when writing a story or something private in their journel. For example they may write,
“God made the heavens and the earth….” (then they change it to a personal thing in the middle of the paragraph) YOU God are MY love and truth.” (then continues) How Great is our God? Wonderful and Mighty!”
Or something like that…. Where the author changes from 1st, 2nd, to 3rd person in the middle of the passage. Like David does in his psalms. I don’t know the word to describe what I’m trying to say, but do you think moses did the same thing when he said,
(Paraphrased) “Let YHWH make Adam in our image….”
If moses said it this way, then it would seem that the one writing down this phrase (moses) was stating that he proceeded adam, and was asking YHWH to make adam in the image of moses and all those that came AFTER him. Sorry if I sound confusing.
The problem is, the enemy will try to corrupt the beginning of Scripture because if he can destroy the beginning, the end won’t exist. And we all know that the end is told right from the very beginning.
By the way, I just wanted to say I love you guys! Be blessed in Yeshua the Messiah’s Name today! =)
Chris,
That is a good testimony. It was nice to have a man that would devote himself to that. So many do not. Do you still maintain contact?
Scot,
I lost contact with him after a few years because they left the church I was attneding at the time. They did see their efforts pay off though as they were present when I was ordained to the ministry. One point I left out was that after living with that family for a while the church put me up in their parsonage for about a year while it was vacant and for sale. I basically became the caretaker. Little did I know that I would spend a great deal of my life living in a parsonage thereafter, as I do now. My first church loved me in so many ways and I will forever be grateful. They made a huge difference in my life! Praise the Lord for them!
Larry,
Your words are judgmental and insulting. I have endured nearly a year of insults from another on this blog and I am not about to take it from you. If you cannot dialog with me without calling me a liar then don’t talk to me at all. I have repeatedly told you that I am not a trinitarian but you insist on continuing to call me that. I have exhausted my efforts to handle this with you in a non-confrontational manner but you refuse to allow me to do that. If you want to continue to be disrespectful then please don’t address me at all.
Re-posted
David,
Let’s go over what I said. I NEVER said you’re trinitarian/catholic/liar and NEVER accused you of anything! I said the way I SEE IT, or MY OPINION, very nicely and politely. This is a free country (still) and I can express freely what I think and feel. That is all brother. Please, do not overreact. I know you are a great guy and I love you! You are a mountain of knowledge, I love your dedication and passion about Torah, Tanakh, Hebrew, etc.
Larry,
Fine, lets go over what you said,
“”The way I see it, you and Rodney believe in a version of “trinity” (or Mutinity”) and it’s funny that you both say “NOOO, I’m not trinitarian.”
Larry, if that is not calling me a trinitarian, then nothing is. I have repeatedly told you that I am not a trinitarian. It is insulting to me. I will not stand for someone representing me on a public forum as something that I am not! You are calling me a liar no matter how much you deny it.
Your failure to understand my words is a problem with your own mind. Not with what I am.
Cut it out, or I will not be able to continue to fellowship with you.
David,
Let’s stick to one thread, “Evolutionist/Sumerian…”. I repeat, I NEVER said “David is a trinitarian”, but I STILL think that what you believe is a VERSION of “trinity”, it is MY OPINION in a free country, simple, no offense. Please don’t overreact brother and don’t use words like those
Did you see my disclaimer on “big bang”? 
Chris,
That is a wonderful story about your being discipled. Can you tell us specifically what materials besides the Bible your discipler used? How did he counsel you and teach you to be able to leave your old ways? Get into the nitty-gritty details please.
Miryam,
The Bible was the primary source for my earliest discipleship. We spent lots and lots of time in the New testament in all of our Bible studies. I didnt even use other materials in Bible study until I had been a believer for more than a year. When I finally did use other helps we used Henry Blackaby ‘Experiencing God: How to know and do the will of God’ and then I went through the “Disciples Cross” and the entire masterlife series written by Willis T. Avery. Both programs focus alot on memorization and growing in a love relationship with God. These two studies profoundly shaped me as an early believer, but they were both entirely scripture focused studies.
What is your stand on speaking in tongues in 1 Cor 14 and on the gifts of the Spirit?